These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

ECM drone balancing: Lots of Research edition

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#1 - 2011-09-28 22:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
About five months ago, I sent a mail to CCP support with a long document and spreadsheet detailing the current, imbalanced state of light and medium ECM drones. I never received any response.

Arguing that they are imbalanced merely because they make the game no fun is no argument (and it's untrue), but I had a feeling they were way too damn powerful. I crunched the numbers compared to other Ewar drones and, lo and behold, they ARE remarkably out of whack with the other Ewar drones sets.

Comment, support, and check out the sister thread. Dog.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-09-28 23:47:48 UTC
ECM drones does indeed seem very powerful and everybody is packing them nowadays.
Could u link to the actual thread or repost it?
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#3 - 2011-09-28 23:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Cpt Fina wrote:
ECM drones does indeed seem very powerful and everybody is packing them nowadays.
Could u link to the actual thread or repost it?

This is the actual thread.

There was no thread before this one; it was an email to CCP support. The contents of that email are linked in the OP.

And yes, predictably, ECM drones are becoming more and more common and mainstream as it becomes increasingly evident how incredibly strong they are, much the same way that nano-BS did pre-Quantum Rise.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Solinuas
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-09-29 01:17:54 UTC
Heya widdershins finally got this up i was waiting for this, and i congratulate you or your analysis its in depth, and unlike everyone else, you think!

As opposed to just whining about it.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-09-30 12:04:48 UTC
Quote:
I stand by my decision to measure the ECM from modules based on unbonused racial ECCM modules. I find this to be a good compromise, since jams from Caldari recons are obviously intended to be far more powerful, and the fact that ECM drones require no skills to improve, and are multispectral and so will jam all races of ship equally. This is also approximately the strength you would attain from a Blackbird with multispectrals and good skills. (This number can also be changed on the spreadsheet.)

This completely skews any comparison that includes the modules. All the modules are generally (with few exceptions) used only on the ships that get bonuses for them, so basing the comparsion on non-bonused modules rather then bonused modules makes it very misleading.

Regardless, yes, ECM drones are way better then any of the other EW drones, but the answer is not to nerf ECM drones, it's to boost the other EW drones, or alternatively nerf damage drones aswell, putting the final nail in the coffin for Gallente. Normall,y I'd be opposed to the concept of boosting everything else rather then nerfing the one item that is stronger then its counterparts, but in this case, its neccecery.
Currently, ECM drones are the only drones that are strong enough that people actually consider replacing damage drones with them, while the other EW drones are just ignored completely, so nerfing ECM drones would just mean that nothing but damage drones are used. On the other hand, boosting the other types sufficently would mean that we have lots of different options that are all viable.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#6 - 2011-09-30 17:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
steave435 wrote:
Quote:
I stand by my decision to measure the ECM from modules based on unbonused racial ECCM modules. I find this to be a good compromise, since jams from Caldari recons are obviously intended to be far more powerful, and the fact that ECM drones require no skills to improve, and are multispectral and so will jam all races of ship equally. This is also approximately the strength you would attain from a Blackbird with multispectrals and good skills. (This number can also be changed on the spreadsheet.)

This completely skews any comparison that includes the modules. All the modules are generally (with few exceptions) used only on the ships that get bonuses for them, so basing the comparsion on non-bonused modules rather then bonused modules makes it very misleading.

Regardless, yes, ECM drones are way better then any of the other EW drones, but the answer is not to nerf ECM drones, it's to boost the other EW drones, or alternatively nerf damage drones aswell, putting the final nail in the coffin for Gallente. Normall,y I'd be opposed to the concept of boosting everything else rather then nerfing the one item that is stronger then its counterparts, but in this case, its neccecery.
Currently, ECM drones are the only drones that are strong enough that people actually consider replacing damage drones with them, while the other EW drones are just ignored completely, so nerfing ECM drones would just mean that nothing but damage drones are used. On the other hand, boosting the other types sufficently would mean that we have lots of different options that are all viable.


ECM modules are no comparison? Obviously you are completely ignoring the fact that the other types of ewar (especially damps and TDs) have ships with EVEN STRONGER bonuses. Try comparing damping drones to perfect Lachesis damps.

Clearly light Ewar drones were never meant to be terribly powerful. Neither were any of these Ewar modules, not on unbonused ships. If you want tracking disruptors, you CAN use light drones on your Rupture, but obviously you'd be better off fitting a module or having a friend. Plus, the relevance of comparing the modules' strength to their drones was never very serious to begin with. Please stop dismissing my entire argument over some nitpick you think you found.

Nerfing damage drones at the same time as ECM drones (which haven't changed in over four years) is completely absurd and makes no sense at all. Just because you are afraid of one of your favorite things becoming less amazingly super-effective, and you want your skill-less light ECM drones to continue to back you up better than a decently skilled midslot would on any ship you care to fly, is no reason to tear down my argument.


In summary, I have clearly put more thought into this than you have.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-09-30 20:45:22 UTC
I tend to agree with the other poster that the other EWAR drones are too underpowered. I feel the other drones are underpowered you feel ECM drones are overpowered. We just have a different view of the same problem - namely the disparity between EWAR drone types.

Pro tip: "I have clearly put more thought into this than you have." damages your credibility and doesn't encourage discussion.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2011-09-30 22:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
OP, check your math.

5 Hornet EC-300 (jam strength 1) vs. Typhoon (sensor strength 18)

Chance for at least one successful jam = 1 - (1 - jam_strength / sensor_strength) ^ number_of_jammers
= 1 - (1 - 1 / 18) ^ 5 = 24.858 percent

The Definitive guide to Electronic Warfare

Also note that skills do not increase drones jam strength.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#9 - 2011-09-30 23:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Tau Cabalander wrote:
OP, check your math.

5 Hornet EC-300 (jam strength 1) vs. Typhoon (sensor strength 18)

Chance for at least one successful jam = 1 - (1 - jam_strength / sensor_strength) ^ number_of_jammers
= 1 - (1 - 1 / 18) ^ 5 = 24.858 percent

The Definitive guide to Electronic Warfare

Also note that skills do not increase drones jam strength.

You may find, as demonstrated below, that my math is in fact pretty flawless.


Document wrote:
Even EC-300 drones, the light ECM version that will fit in almost any ship with even a minimal drone complement, will have a 76 percent chance to jam a Typhoon battleship at least once in the first 90 seconds of a fight.

5 drones * 5 attempts each (in 90 seconds) = 25 attempts
Chance to not get jammed = 17/18
Chance to not jam once over 90 seconds = (17/18)^25 = 23.96 percent
Chance to get jammed at least once over 90 seconds = 100 percent - 23.96 percent = 76.04 percent

Next time please read more carefully. (If you did, you would see that I mention specifically the fact that Ewar drones are never affected by skills. It would do you well to actually learn what you are actually arguing against before attempting the task.)


Mongo Edwards wrote:
I tend to agree with the other poster that the other EWAR drones are too underpowered. I feel the other drones are underpowered you feel ECM drones are overpowered. We just have a different view of the same problem - namely the disparity between EWAR drone types.

On the contrary, Ewar drones are quite powerful, probably moreso than most people imagine. Keep in mind that these numbers are for stacks of 5 drones, when the optimal number is usually 3, so that more than one effect can be applied handily without diminishing either too greatly. (For instance, 2 tracking disrupting drones and 3 painting drones - this is pretty great). Just because you don't see something used that much in combat does not mean it is bad, and just because you don't use it yourself doesn't mean it isn't a bit too powerful.

Also please take note that I do not endorse the nerfing of ECM drones on the basis that they are too powerful, but rather that they are far out of line when compared to other drone sets of similar types.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#10 - 2011-10-01 09:43:00 UTC
Cpt Fina wrote:
Would be nice if it was uploaded somewhere that didn't require login.
But I guess you prove your point

IDK what you're on about, it should never require anyone to log in for it. I posted it publicly so that anyone can view it without logging in.

Plus I just tested it on three browsers. Seriously, I'm not sure what the issue is.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Laechyd Eldgorn
Avanto
Hole Control
#11 - 2011-10-01 11:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn
I partially agree with the math.

However you should not ever compare only minmatar ship stats with ECM because minmatar are generally weakest against ECM by game design. If you get jammed in minmatar ship you can go in dark corner and cry in secret.

But still, if looking only light ECM drones they could get 20% drop in ECM strenght and they'd still be useful.

edit: I think one of problems is that also drones have long jam cycle, which means target might just die during that ONE lucky cycle from drones while having no chance to even shoot them down.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#12 - 2011-10-01 11:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
You have my deepest support, but I'm definitely not holding my breath.


Edit: Inappropriate part removed, CCP Phantom.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#13 - 2011-10-01 11:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
I partially agree with the math.

However you should not ever compare only minmatar ship stats with ECM because minmatar are generally weakest against ECM by game design. If you get jammed in minmatar ship you can go in dark corner and cry in secret.

But still, if looking only light ECM drones they could get 20% drop in ECM strenght and they'd still be useful.

edit: I think one of problems is that also drones have long jam cycle, which means target might just die during that ONE lucky cycle from drones while having no chance to even shoot them down.

Please, do some background reading. The number I am comparing it with is Minmatar for the sake of scaling on the graph, and for the sake of example. You can change this number to whatever you want if you actually take the time to download the spreadsheet.

Plus, it is a very average sensor strength, a bit closer to a Drake than a Hurricane. Why you would complain about that is beyond me. I'm not comparing it against Minmatar ships in general, I'm comparing it to a generic ship with 18 sensor strength.

I have no idea what you're talking about in your edit. Drones have the same jam cycle as modules do. And if you're complaining about the target getting away when they jam you with drones with "that one lucky cycle," congratulations, you just discovered the entire purpose of ECM. Bravo.


Caius Sivaris wrote:

You have my deepest support, but I'm definitely not holding my breath.

Well, it can't hurt to have a little faith.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#14 - 2011-10-03 05:51:26 UTC
As much as I dislike Widdershins, his analysis is spot on.

ECM isnt subject to the same stacking penalties of all other mid slot ewar. This has to do with ecm being all-or-nothing, and its generally poor design.

Im of the opinion that the entire ECM mechanic regardless of its actual in-game power is a bad mechanic.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#15 - 2011-10-03 06:38:56 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
As much as I dislike Widdershins, his analysis is spot on.

ECM isnt subject to the same stacking penalties of all other mid slot ewar. This has to do with ecm being all-or-nothing, and its generally poor design.

Im of the opinion that the entire ECM mechanic regardless of its actual in-game power is a bad mechanic.

I don't know why you guys all hate me so much. I did my very best to be nice and courteous to you, and to give you helpful advice while chatting with you on your forums. I will repeatedly blow you up and pod you over and over with great glee, but I bear you no ill will. (some hatchery guys are total dickwads though, just sayin)

Back on topic, I believe you raise a very good point. If stacking penalties could be brought to ECM, that might also help to mitigate the problem even further, while not making Falcons or other ECM ships worthless.

Consider this though: How would those stacking penalties be applied? Would they be applied strongest-first? Would they just all take stacking penalties based on the number of other objects attempting to ECM you? Remember, either ECM works or it doesn't work.

With a strongest-first model, this would mean that it would always be best to have ECM of several different strengths on your ship, so that you'd try them in order from weakest to strongest so that each successive attempt gets full strength on its first cycle. With an everything-stacks model, one of the most effective ways to render Falcons completely useless would be to put a flight of Light ECM drones on everyone in your fleet, so that any falcon's attempts are diminished to less than 5% normal, and you'd never get jammed by the light drones anyway because they are also reduced to insignificant levels.

...See, it doesn't really translate. I'm pretty sure that to change ECM would involve either tweaking its strengths, or completely removing one of EVE's longest-standing mechanics from the game.

It's a tough decision to make. Effectively-deployed ECM makes a lot of people very angry, because it almost entirely removes from them (however temporarily) the ability to fight while flying in space. The fact is, though, this is not a CCP-given right endowed upon all capsuleers at birth. I still think ECM is a valid mechanic that deserves to be in the game.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#16 - 2011-10-03 07:30:38 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
...Consider this though: How would those stacking penalties be applied?...

That is where the problem lies. As long as the mechanic is "either/or" you can't apply stacking penalties since the randomness is per module activation .. you'd need to rewrite/rethink the underlying mechanic to add stacking.

Something a majority of the anti-ECM lobby has been trying to make others understand for ages, "stun-locking" quite simply makes for atrocious gameplay (unless its a single player game).
CCP (read: Team BFF) need to brainstorm a completely redone eWar system since the TD is currently the only module that actually works (ie. limits (missile), multiple counters, stacking). Painters are obsoleted by tracking in most cases, mainly seeing action in conjunction with missile spam and Damps are so situational as to be on par with mining lasers (bad example but best 'worst' I could think of Smile).

In short: ECM as envisioned is what needs to be fixed. They can make them absolute God-modules (more than they are) as long as there are clear and non-gimping counters for all ship classes and people are not required to watch an Eve cinematic for the duration.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#17 - 2011-10-03 07:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Hirana Yoshida wrote:

In short: ECM as envisioned is what needs to be fixed. They can make them absolute God-modules (more than they are) as long as there are clear and non-gimping counters for all ship classes and people are not required to watch an Eve cinematic for the duration.

Everyone on grid should have their screen cut to a slow motion cinematic (a-la Street Fighter IV ultra-combos) where it zooms in, the background goes dark and streaky, and you poke them right in the eyeball with fire/lightning and flashy effects.

In seriousness, how about this, instead of breaking all your target locks:

  • All targeted weapons (missiles and guns) increase in cycle time by 300-400% (but only during the jam cycle; 1400 artillery should not take 3 minutes to fire again if you are jammed at the wrong time).
  • Other offensive modules (energy neutralizers, energy vampires, target painters, tracking disruptors, sensor dampeners, stasis webifiers) are reduced in effectiveness by 75-80%.
  • Warp scramblers no longer turn off MWDs.
  • Warp disruptors and warp scramblers are reduced to 1/2 or 1/3 of their original point value (so they still keep you from warping out, but 1 stab will counter more than one of them).
  • Drones cannot be directly commanded to attack or repair.
  • ECM stops working entirely. ECM bursts still work.
  • Assistive modules (remote repairs, energy transfers, tracking links, remote ECCM, remote sensor boosters) stop working entirely.
  • You can no longer see the health bars on your targets.
  • Scan resolution is reduced by 80-90% (acquiring new targets while you are jammed should be slow)


ECM bursts remain the same.

This should make sense, as well as achieve most of the usually-desired effects of ECM, without completely taking the target out of the fight

Does this sound good? Does it sound underpowered? Does it sound pointless?

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#18 - 2011-10-03 17:54:33 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:

In short: ECM as envisioned is what needs to be fixed. They can make them absolute God-modules (more than they are) as long as there are clear and non-gimping counters for all ship classes and people are not required to watch an Eve cinematic for the duration.

Everyone on grid should have their screen cut to a slow motion cinematic (a-la Street Fighter IV ultra-combos) where it zooms in, the background goes dark and streaky, and you poke them right in the eyeball with fire/lightning and flashy effects.

In seriousness, how about this, instead of breaking all your target locks:

  • All targeted weapons (missiles and guns) increase in cycle time by 300-400% (but only during the jam cycle; 1400 artillery should not take 3 minutes to fire again if you are jammed at the wrong time).
  • Other offensive modules (energy neutralizers, energy vampires, target painters, tracking disruptors, sensor dampeners, stasis webifiers) are reduced in effectiveness by 75-80%.
  • Warp scramblers no longer turn off MWDs.
  • Warp disruptors and warp scramblers are reduced to 1/2 or 1/3 of their original point value (so they still keep you from warping out, but 1 stab will counter more than one of them).
  • Drones cannot be directly commanded to attack or repair.
  • ECM stops working entirely. ECM bursts still work.
  • Assistive modules (remote repairs, energy transfers, tracking links, remote ECCM, remote sensor boosters) stop working entirely.
  • You can no longer see the health bars on your targets.
  • Scan resolution is reduced by 80-90% (acquiring new targets while you are jammed should be slow)


ECM bursts remain the same.

This should make sense, as well as achieve most of the usually-desired effects of ECM, without completely taking the target out of the fight

Does this sound good? Does it sound underpowered? Does it sound pointless?


I think something like this would work (with actual numbers subject to testing), but I think its overly complicated. I do like the idea of fractional warp disruption strength. I think that would be a neat mechanic all on its own.


An idea I had is lowering the jam time, while keeping ECM module cycle time the same. If that were the case, then you would need multiple jams to keep someone permajammed, and stacking penalties could apply. Its still a ****** mechanic, but at least its subject to the same rules as other ewar.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#19 - 2011-10-03 18:23:04 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I think something like this would work (with actual numbers subject to testing), but I think its overly complicated. I do like the idea of fractional warp disruption strength. I think that would be a neat mechanic all on its own.


An idea I had is lowering the jam time, while keeping ECM module cycle time the same. If that were the case, then you would need multiple jams to keep someone permajammed, and stacking penalties could apply. Its still a ****** mechanic, but at least its subject to the same rules as other ewar.

It might sound complicated, but the concept is simple; you'd just be MOSTLY jammed. Anything that involves sensors or targeting gets a lot worse; guns take a hella long time to aim, target painters squiggle around like a shaky laser pointer and don't work too good, etc.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#20 - 2011-10-03 21:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Go Diveher
This again. Sad

I took the time to read all the linked documents, and there is some merit to your argument, but you're overlooking a lot.

You're comparing apples with oranges, and concluding that something being different makes it overpowered.

What lies at the base of your assumption they are "over-powered?"

That a 25% jam chance looks like a "higher" figure than a 11% Target painter bonus? That is a flawed way of looking at things.

When you consider a gang fight, what are those one set of drones doing?

The ECM drones are giving a 25% chance of jamming ONE SHIP per cycle. i.e. a 75% chance they have NO EFFECT AT ALL.

The target painter drones however, are increasing the applied DPS from all ships in the enemy gang by 11% (or rather, mitigating the reduction in DPS due to factors relating to signature by 11% which admittedly might not always be the same thing).

The counter to ECM drones is to fit ECCM which mitigates their usefulness by an extreme amount. The counter to a signature radius penalty is .. there isn't one.

If you're 1 vs 1 those ECM drones look pretty damn good. Overpowered? Debatable.

If you're in a 10 vs 10 then damage drones suddenly put a LOT more hurt on a primary target (and ergo the gang) than random jam cycles thrown in. Arguably, TP drones would have a similar effect.

You don't seem to *want* the "ECM vs other EWAR" argument, but sadly, there is your balance. In some situations a chance of the effect is what you need, in others, the effect being consistent the entire fight is what you need. Changing ECM to work the same way like you propose? Personally, I don't like it. It would be massively overpowered.

I almost stopped reading it when you decided to compare unscripted modules to what are effectively "scripted drones". i.e. if you're trying to scan res damp someone, there's little point in comparing the damping drones to an unscripted module; you'd be using the scripted variant. Had you done this, you would have a better conclusion: "Why are all EWAR drones worse than using T2 mods on un-bonused hulls?" - as THAT is why you only see ECM fielded. It's better to slap an ewar module or two in your gang on un-bonused hulls than it is to give up the damage of Hams / Ogres or the utility of ECM drones. Every time.

That the decision on fitting drones is currently "damage, or ECM?" says nothing about ECM being overpowered, but everything about the other types being under-powered. The rest need to be buffed so the decision is "Damage, or EWAR .. which type?"
123Next page