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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Solution for too much isk in the eve economy

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Commander Spurty
#121 - 2012-09-17 14:10:05 UTC
Detecting a stealth "dumb sized blues list" fix post here so that's the point of my reply:

Remove the ability to set standings. BANG

Standings should only exist between individuals and NPC mission agents



There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-09-17 14:13:08 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Detecting a stealth "dumb sized blues list" fix post here so that's the point of my reply:

Remove the ability to set standings. BANG

Standings should only exist between individuals and NPC mission agents

I assume there's some sort of problem that you're trying to solve, here?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#123 - 2012-09-17 14:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Spurty wrote:
Detecting a stealth "dumb sized blues list" fix post here so that's the point of my reply:

Remove the ability to set standings. BANG

Standings should only exist between individuals and NPC mission agents





This would be dumb and also would backfire. Take Goons for example, with ~9000 members no single alliance would be able to counter them solo atm. So without having standings groups of corporations or alliances wouldn't be able to form up against them, without having major issues(shooting friends).

Edit: Correction on Goons member count. Looks like they've grown.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Attor
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2012-09-17 16:41:50 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Detecting a stealth "dumb sized blues list" fix post here so that's the point of my reply:

Remove the ability to set standings. BANG

Standings should only exist between individuals and NPC mission agents



I don't get it. How would forcing me to tape a list of tickers I'm not allowed to shoot at to the side of my monitor reduce the number of alliances in a coalition? Anyways the blue list is irrelevant because they're all going to be purple when it matters anyways.

Back on topic, besides the fact that bigger numbers are scary could somebody explain why inflation is so terrible assuming income increases with it?
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#125 - 2012-09-17 17:22:19 UTC
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
It should be a comfort to everyone concerned about inflation that the benevolent space guild Goonswarm Federation in conjunction with the greater CFC and the Honeybadger Coalition has destroyed over 3600 ships to the tune of over 300b including many carriers and even a super carrier today.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/UMI-KK/kills

Anyone else wanna contribute?



that isk doesn't actually leave the economy, it just switched hands.


So if I have a 200m smartbombing Scorpion and it gets destroyed, I get about 40m insurance. Let's say 10m in mods drop and someone scoops that up. Probably 5m or so in salvage. Where did the other 145m go?


You never had a Scorpion made out of 200m. You had a Scorpion that someone would be willing to trade you 200m isk for.

When the Scorpion gets destroyed, the isk still remains, what you lost is the approximate value of 200m, which means you've just caused inflation as now less value represents the same amount of isk.

Even worse is if you insured the ship, now you've added the insurance payout into the system, causing even more inflation.

The good news is your loss of a ship means you will probably want to get a new one. This causes demand and reduces inflation. As long as inflation caused by destruction and demand caused by destruction are equal, there is a net of zero inflation. Once you include insurance pay out, more isk is entering the system which does cause inflation as there is now more money to represent the same amount of value.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-09-17 17:42:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:
what I propose was not just about reducing the isk in the economy, it's also a conflict driver.

It encourages large mega alliances to regroup into smaller groups.

Smaller groups tend to be easier to unseat from their long established "homes". It might open the door to some smaller alliances that are looking to own some space.

No it doesn't. You could blast the alliance system entirely out, as long as there's an ability to set individual standings and unified coms via jabber/teamspeak what have you it won't affect anything.

At most it will add complication.

Agenda already spotted. They're thinking of the typical 10,000 member alliance, right?


Whats kinda funny about this idea is it would probably hit many high sec people more than a lot of null sec one. I mean large alliance would probably be able to split in small entity while keeping to same working "order of battle" while many high sec people are in npc corp because they don't know better.

Trying to target the famous 10k memeber alliance is "cool" but many idea fail HARD.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#127 - 2012-09-17 17:44:31 UTC
Barakach wrote:
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
It should be a comfort to everyone concerned about inflation that the benevolent space guild Goonswarm Federation in conjunction with the greater CFC and the Honeybadger Coalition has destroyed over 3600 ships to the tune of over 300b including many carriers and even a super carrier today.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/UMI-KK/kills

Anyone else wanna contribute?



that isk doesn't actually leave the economy, it just switched hands.


So if I have a 200m smartbombing Scorpion and it gets destroyed, I get about 40m insurance. Let's say 10m in mods drop and someone scoops that up. Probably 5m or so in salvage. Where did the other 145m go?


You never had a Scorpion made out of 200m. You had a Scorpion that someone would be willing to trade you 200m isk for.

When the Scorpion gets destroyed, the isk still remains, what you lost is the approximate value of 200m, which means you've just caused inflation as now less value represents the same amount of isk.

Even worse is if you insured the ship, now you've added the insurance payout into the system, causing even more inflation.

The good news is your loss of a ship means you will probably want to get a new one. This causes demand and reduces inflation. As long as inflation caused by destruction and demand caused by destruction are equal, there is a net of zero inflation. Once you include insurance pay out, more isk is entering the system which does cause inflation as there is now more money to represent the same amount of value.


What if they added npc sold ship? I know it would reduce the number of profitable industry market to a point but it would bleed isk out of the game right?
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#128 - 2012-09-17 18:20:31 UTC
Moved from General Discussion to Features and Ideas.

Thanks and fly safe!

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#129 - 2012-09-17 18:30:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

What if they added npc sold ship? I know it would reduce the number of profitable industry market to a point but it would bleed isk out of the game right?



Yes, giving money to a NPC is a sink and getting money from a NPC is a faucet.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2012-09-17 19:05:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
What if they added npc sold ship? I know it would reduce the number of profitable industry market to a point but it would bleed isk out of the game right?

It's almost as if CCP hasn't been deliberately removing NPC-made stuff for a reason.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#131 - 2012-09-17 19:10:23 UTC
I can fix this for everyone.

For a reasonable fee, I will accept donations, use this donated ISK to buy plex, and destroy it.

This will create a demand increase for plex, of course, but it will also remove ISK from the economy.

I will keep my fees modest, 5% of the value of received donations.

Start donating today. The ISK you spend now I can promise to not return to you.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2012-09-17 19:27:03 UTC
:sigh: Buying plex will only remove isk from the economy insofar that sales taxes are involved.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-09-17 20:24:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Thus endeth the lesson.


Tippia, Do you think EVE would be a better game if the ISK faucets did exactly balance the sinks, and there was a fixed amount of ISK in-game (fixed amount per active subscription)? You could easily achieve this by scaling faucets back dynamically.... I guess the question is does inflation actually hurt Eve in the first place....
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#134 - 2012-09-17 20:31:53 UTC
Untradeable NPC items.
Ship pianting, CQ decorations, etc.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#135 - 2012-09-17 20:37:40 UTC
betoli wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Thus endeth the lesson.


Tippia, Do you think EVE would be a better game if the ISK faucets did exactly balance the sinks, and there was a fixed amount of ISK in-game (fixed amount per active subscription)? You could easily achieve this by scaling faucets back dynamically.... I guess the question is does inflation actually hurt Eve in the first place....

This would put the economy as a whole on a curve, and not necessarily an even one.

For one person to have more, others would need to have less.

The important factor to consider, is that the more successful a group of players becomes, the more financially squeezed must be a set of counterparts for them. Quite possibly not an equal number of people on either side, with one pilot able to have several times over the amount of ISK averaged into the economy per account.

This is bad.

By placing ISK limits on one side, and a more successful player on the other, they can be pushed into a level of play experience below the threshold needed to keep most players happy and subscribed to the game.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-09-17 21:14:59 UTC
Cat Troll wrote:
Ship pianting, CQ decorations, etc.

I like this idea.
kilmenow Hakaari
Doomheim
#137 - 2012-09-18 09:42:44 UTC
Barakach wrote:
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
It should be a comfort to everyone concerned about inflation that the benevolent space guild Goonswarm Federation in conjunction with the greater CFC and the Honeybadger Coalition has destroyed over 3600 ships to the tune of over 300b including many carriers and even a super carrier today.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/UMI-KK/kills

Anyone else wanna contribute?



that isk doesn't actually leave the economy, it just switched hands.


So if I have a 200m smartbombing Scorpion and it gets destroyed, I get about 40m insurance. Let's say 10m in mods drop and someone scoops that up. Probably 5m or so in salvage. Where did the other 145m go?


You never had a Scorpion made out of 200m. You had a Scorpion that someone would be willing to trade you 200m isk for.

When the Scorpion gets destroyed, the isk still remains, what you lost is the approximate value of 200m, which means you've just caused inflation as now less value represents the same amount of isk.

Even worse is if you insured the ship, now you've added the insurance payout into the system, causing even more inflation.

The good news is your loss of a ship means you will probably want to get a new one. This causes demand and reduces inflation. As long as inflation caused by destruction and demand caused by destruction are equal, there is a net of zero inflation. Once you include insurance pay out, more isk is entering the system which does cause inflation as there is now more money to represent the same amount of value.


Great point about the net being zero
kilmenow Hakaari
Doomheim
#138 - 2012-09-18 09:47:29 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:
what I propose was not just about reducing the isk in the economy, it's also a conflict driver.

It encourages large mega alliances to regroup into smaller groups.

Smaller groups tend to be easier to unseat from their long established "homes". It might open the door to some smaller alliances that are looking to own some space.

No it doesn't. You could blast the alliance system entirely out, as long as there's an ability to set individual standings and unified coms via jabber/teamspeak what have you it won't affect anything.

At most it will add complication.

Agenda already spotted. They're thinking of the typical 10,000 member alliance, right?



Goons aren't the only mega alliance. They are the largest though. I like the goons, they find a problem or issue with the game. Bring it to ccp's attention. Then there is no response, so the goons poke at the problem, then hit it with a bat, then beat it over and over with the bat. And finally they get the dozer out and scrape the problem all aroung the property, dragging the bloody carcus around till everyone that drives by screams "HOLY **** WTF HAPPENED THERE". Then ccp notices and does something.

They might be out to rune everyone elses game, but they are really good at improveing Eve by getting the errors fixed.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2012-09-18 11:14:57 UTC
I dont think that is a good idea to solve the isk problem, but id definitely would be a punch in the face of the powerblocks and a big help for small alliances that hold a couple of systems. This means more alliances in null-sec more pvp and more conflicts.

A new POS system could help on this too, making the life out of hi-sec viable.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-09-18 19:38:56 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
betoli wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Thus endeth the lesson.


Tippia, Do you think EVE would be a better game if the ISK faucets did exactly balance the sinks, and there was a fixed amount of ISK in-game (fixed amount per active subscription)? You could easily achieve this by scaling faucets back dynamically.... I guess the question is does inflation actually hurt Eve in the first place....

This would put the economy as a whole on a curve, and not necessarily an even one.

For one person to have more, others would need to have less.



In terms of liquidity, you're right. In terms of assets not so. Liquidity is not a measure of success. ISK is only useful when you spend it (or possibly as escrow).

Quote:

The important factor to consider, is that the more successful a group of players becomes, the more financially squeezed must be a set of counterparts for them. Quite possibly not an equal number of people on either side, with one pilot able to have several times over the amount of ISK averaged into the economy per account.

This is bad.

By placing ISK limits on one side, and a more successful player on the other, they can be pushed into a level of play experience below the threshold needed to keep most players happy and subscribed to the game.


I would agree that balance would need care. However, I was suggesting ALL faucets in the game are throttled to achieve zero inflation. I don't think that predjudices any particular area or group - or does it?