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Humongous inconsistencies in deadspace tanking mods - shield boosters made extreme
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2012-09-16 10:35:38 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
The problem is that shield boosters are the only high-end module that breaks the mould.

If high-end modules can be expected to break the mould then why aren't there large armor reps with 200 cap cost? Why aren't there A-Type Energized Adaptive Membranes with 50% resists? Why aren't there deadspace MWDs with 1000% speed boosts? Why aren't there officer ECMs with 10+ jam strength?
…and what are the supposed moulds for these modules?

But ok, at least that's a reason. It still leaves the question of “so what?” That's just a template-matching error, not a balancing problem.
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-09-16 10:44:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
The problem is that shield boosters are the only high-end module that breaks the mould.

If high-end modules can be expected to break the mould then why aren't there large armor reps with 200 cap cost? Why aren't there A-Type Energized Adaptive Membranes with 50% resists? Why aren't there deadspace MWDs with 1000% speed boosts? Why aren't there officer ECMs with 10+ jam strength?
…and what are the supposed moulds for these modules?

But ok, at least that's a reason. It still leaves the question of “so what?” That's just a template-matching error, not a balancing problem.


Then let's call it a template-matching error, should be even easier to fix.

Simply match the deadspace shield boosters to the template used by every single other deadspace module and we can all be happy and go home.

I mean surely a single playstyle shouldn't profit from what's essentially a typo by one of the devs?
Nihil Nobilitae
The Scarlet Storm
#23 - 2012-09-16 10:51:57 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:

If high-end modules can be expected to break the mould then why aren't there large armor reps with 200 cap cost? Why aren't there A-Type Energized Adaptive Membranes with 50% resists? Why aren't there deadspace MWDs with 1000% speed boosts? Why aren't there officer ECMs with 10+ jam strength?


Cause they're passive, not active. And therefore don't add up with the already immense cap comsumption of active shield tanking.

You can easily run a Large Armor Repairer in a cap stable setup without gimping yourself. The same can't be said for a Large or X-Large Shield Booster. Therefore even battleships have to move down to mediums while supplementing them with a Crystal set just in order to have a sustainable defense.
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-09-16 11:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Gobla
Nihil Nobilitae wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:

If high-end modules can be expected to break the mould then why aren't there large armor reps with 200 cap cost? Why aren't there A-Type Energized Adaptive Membranes with 50% resists? Why aren't there deadspace MWDs with 1000% speed boosts? Why aren't there officer ECMs with 10+ jam strength?


Cause they're passive, not active. And therefore don't add up with the already immense cap comsumption of active shield tanking.

You can easily run a Large Armor Repairer in a cap stable setup without gimping yourself. The same can't be said for a Large or X-Large Shield Booster. Therefore even battleships have to move down to mediums while supplementing them with a Crystal set just in order to have a sustainable defense.


Why would you want to be cap-stable?

Neither my shield tanked nor armour tanked setups are cap-stable, nor do my shield setups use deadspace mods, and they perform perfectly fine.

If I can do it with subpar shield tanking skills and a simple T2 large shield booster then you're really doing it horribly wrong if you need deadspace boosters and crystals.

Not to mention that of all those modules only a single one is actually passive...

I mean passive ECM? Passive MWD? Passive armor reps?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2012-09-16 11:07:11 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Then let's call it a template-matching error, should be even easier to fix.
…if a fix is at all needed, which remains to be seen. Again, what's the problem?

As people have pointed out, just comparing the modules doesn't tell us much — they need a context in which they work and need to be compared within that context. Saying that shield boosters are out of whack compared to armour boosters just by comparing the stats is like saying that target painting is a more potent ewar than ECM because it has higher range and lower cap draw…
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-09-16 11:53:51 UTC
Nihil Nobilitae wrote:
You can easily run a Large Armor Repairer in a cap stable setup without gimping yourself. The same can't be said for a Large or X-Large Shield Booster. Therefore even battleships have to move down to mediums while supplementing them with a Crystal set just in order to have a sustainable defense.



I strongly recommend you to share your uber Hyperion/Megathron cap stable running 1 single uber dead space LAR fit that isn't a lol PVE setup or an awesome loot piñata brick alike with mids and rigs wasted by cap recharge mods, even then you can't get anything cap stable unless you are lol fit AB.

Awesome indeed, extremely well balanced.

*returns fit his double XL-ASB sleipnir*

brb
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-09-16 12:24:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Then let's call it a template-matching error, should be even easier to fix.
…if a fix is at all needed, which remains to be seen. Again, what's the problem?

As people have pointed out, just comparing the modules doesn't tell us much — they need a context in which they work and need to be compared within that context. Saying that shield boosters are out of whack compared to armour boosters just by comparing the stats is like saying that target painting is a more potent ewar than ECM because it has higher range and lower cap draw…


Oh, well if it isn't a problem then shall we just increase the rep amount and vastly decrease the cap cost of deadspace armour reps? Let's also introduce 10+ jam strength officer ECM and deadspace ABs that go as fast as MWDs.

I mean it'll only be a template-matching error. It won't actually be a problem. Shortly after introducing them their prices will skyrocket meaning they won't be cost effective for PvP, so by the same logic applied to shield boosters they'll be perfectly balanced.

And the OP was about comparing shield boosters and armour reps in a PvE context, where these boosters are most commonly used, showing that shield boosters are vastly superior. From this we can draw two conclusions:

Either it is a problem and thus shield boosters should be reduced in effectiveness.
Or it isn't a problem and thus armour reps can be increased to the same effectiveness without any problems and only increase the variety of ships flown in that context.

Either way, there's absolutely no reason for such a disparity between shield boosters and armour reps.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2012-09-16 12:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I strongly recommend you to share your uber Hyperion/Megathron cap stable running 1 single uber dead space LAR fit that isn't a lol PVE setup or an awesome loot piñata brick alike with mids and rigs wasted by cap recharge mods, even then you can't get anything cap stable unless you are lol fit AB.

Awesome indeed, extremely well balanced.

*returns fit his double XL-ASB sleipnir*
…but that's the whole thing, isn't it? Of course it'll be a PvE setup because that's what's being discussed. In fact, the only place where this “imbalance” exists/ is in PvE, where imbalances don't particularly matter. In PvP, the shield boosters in question simply aren't worth it — even more so now that ASBs have come along.

Cpt Gobla wrote:
Oh, well if it isn't a problem then shall we just increase the rep amount and vastly decrease the cap cost of deadspace armour reps? Let's also introduce 10+ jam strength officer ECM and deadspace ABs that go as fast as MWDs.
Nice straw man. Too bad that straw man arguments are fallacies.

So, again, what is the problem?

Quote:
Either it is a problem and thus shield boosters should be reduced in effectiveness.
Or it isn't a problem and thus armour reps can be increased to the same effectiveness without any problems and only increase the variety of ships flown in that context.
Except that, as people have been pointing out, the imbalance doesn't really exist once you put the modules into a context and stop comparing them in a complete void just based on their individual stats. There are no ships that are held back from being awesome in PvE just because the high-meta armour reppers don't work like the high-meta shield boosters. Put another way…

Quote:
Either way, there's absolutely no reason for such a disparity between shield boosters and armour reps.
…what disparity?
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-09-16 12:56:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Either way, there's absolutely no reason for such a disparity between shield boosters and armour reps.
…what disparity?


You forgot the OP already?

Read it again.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2012-09-16 13:31:33 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
You forgot the OP already?
No, but the OP only shows a bunch of context-less comparisons of incomplete numbers. He's making that “TP is better than ECM” leap of logic mentioned earlier.

So: what disparity?
Nihil Nobilitae
The Scarlet Storm
#31 - 2012-09-16 13:58:32 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

I strongly recommend you to share your uber Hyperion/Megathron cap stable running 1 single uber dead space LAR fit that isn't a lol PVE setup or an awesome loot piñata brick alike with mids and rigs wasted by cap recharge mods, even then you can't get anything cap stable unless you are lol fit AB.


I strongly reccomend you to share any PVP fit that is actively used and has a A or B type Pith or Gist Medium shield booster.

Were talking PVE here.
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-09-16 14:01:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
You forgot the OP already?
No, but the OP only shows a bunch of context-less comparisons of incomplete numbers. He's making that “TP is better than ECM” leap of logic mentioned earlier.

So: what disparity?


ECM and TP have totally different effects.

Shield Boosters and Armour Repairers have much the same effect, they restore HP.

They do this in slightly different ways. Armour repairers are slow, hitting at the end of the cycle, but efficient. Providing less burst but more stability.

Shield Boosters are fast, with short cycle times and hitting at the start, but more costly. Providing more burst but less stability.

Deadspace armour repairers are still slow and efficient.

Deadspace Shield Boosters on the other hand are both fast and even more efficient than the best Armour Repairers.

They repair 2,93 hp/cap as opposed to 2,8 hp/cap for the best armour repairers. They provide both burst and efficiency.

That's what's broken. Either deadspace boosters need to retain the disadvantages of Shield Boosters in general or deadspace Armour Repairers need to lose the disadvantages of Armour reps.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2012-09-16 15:02:01 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Deadspace Shield Boosters on the other hand are both fast and even more efficient than the best Armour Repairers.

They repair 2,93 hp/cap as opposed to 2,8 hp/cap for the best armour repairers. They provide both burst and efficiency.

That's what's broken.
That doesn't make them broken. If they provide too much tank, they might be, but nothing has been presented so far to show that they do. You're still just comparing meaningless numbers that don't show anything.
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-09-16 15:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Gobla
Tippia wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Deadspace Shield Boosters on the other hand are both fast and even more efficient than the best Armour Repairers.

They repair 2,93 hp/cap as opposed to 2,8 hp/cap for the best armour repairers. They provide both burst and efficiency.

That's what's broken.
That doesn't make them broken. If they provide too much tank, they might be, but nothing has been presented so far to show that they do. You're still just comparing meaningless numbers that don't show anything.


The Boosters themselves aren't necessarily broken. It's the disparity with armour repairers I outlined that is.

They're more efficient, they repair more, they're faster, they hit at the start of the cycle, Large and even X-Large have fitting requirements allowing them to fit on BCs or even Cruisers.

Armour repairers need to be brought to that levels or the booster to repper level.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-09-16 15:29:30 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
The Boosters themselves aren't necessarily broken. It's the disparity with armour repairers I outlined that is.
…and that supposed disparity isn't shown by the numbers because on their own don't tell us anything useful. You're still lacking context, such as the fact that a shield tank becomes less cap effective the more you reinforce it, whereas an armour tank becomes more cap effective; such as armour HP being inherently more worth than shield HP; such as fitting restrictions and opportunity costs.

Just comparing the numbers is meaningless because it tells us nothing useful about the balance between the tanking types. The disparity you're pointing to is exactly like the disparity between ECM and TPs — meaningless because you're forgetting everything else surrounding those two numbers you've chosen to look at.

So… as usual: what's the problem?
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-09-16 16:02:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
The Boosters themselves aren't necessarily broken. It's the disparity with armour repairers I outlined that is.
…and that supposed disparity isn't shown by the numbers because on their own don't tell us anything useful. You're still lacking context, such as the fact that a shield tank becomes less cap effective the more you reinforce it, whereas an armour tank becomes more cap effective; such as armour HP being inherently more worth than shield HP; such as fitting restrictions and opportunity costs.


Saying that you do realize that there's only 0,5 cap per second difference between Armour and Shield Hardeners, compensating for the fact that shields passively regenerate, meaning every % of resist has a small additional benefit?

And that, when talking deadspace hardeners the shield ones are, again, more cap-efficient than equivalent armour hardeners?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-09-16 16:18:16 UTC
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Saying that you do realize that there's only 0,5 cap per second difference between Armour and Shield Hardeners, compensating for the fact that shields passively regenerate, meaning every % of resist has a small additional benefit?
I'm saying that you're missing the bigger picture and focusing on specific stats that, on their own, are completely meaningless.

As a result, the supposed discrepancy you're hoping to show doesn't actually appear.
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-09-16 16:23:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cpt Gobla wrote:
Saying that you do realize that there's only 0,5 cap per second difference between Armour and Shield Hardeners, compensating for the fact that shields passively regenerate, meaning every % of resist has a small additional benefit?
I'm saying that you're missing the bigger picture and focusing on specific stats that, on their own, are completely meaningless.

As a result, the supposed discrepancy you're hoping to show doesn't actually appear.


That bigger picture is composed of smaller pictures.

If one of those smaller pictures is imbalanced then that will translate to the bigger picture unless there's another smaller picture compensating. And that's what's missing.

Those stats aren't meaningless. They're just complex. Each of them plays a role in the bigger picture. If you fail to see that role then that doesn't mean that they don't play a role.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2012-09-16 16:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cpt Gobla wrote:
That bigger picture is composed of smaller pictures.
…and you have to include them all. You can't look at each and every one of them on their own, nor can you, as in this case, only look at partial smaller pictures on their own.

One smaller picture being different than its equivalent in some other context does not make the whole imbalanced because that will depend on the other parts. That's why you look at the whole, not the parts. If you find something wrong with the whole, then you might want to dig down to see what's causing it, but so far, nothing has shown to be wrong on that level so digging down is utterly pointless.

The stats are indeed completely meaningless without a context — again, see the ECM vs. TP example for an illustration of why.

Quote:
If one of those smaller pictures is imbalanced then that will translate to the bigger picture unless there's another smaller picture compensating. And that's what's missing.
Yes. The other parts are missing in this picture. Include them and then come back and show that we need to drill down (and show that it's the boosters, specifically, that are causing whatever problem you're seeing)…

So, in short: what's the problem?
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-09-16 16:40:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
One smaller picture being different than its equivalent in some other context does not make the whole imbalanced because that will depend on the other parts. That's why you look at the whole, not the parts. If you find something wrong with the whole, then you might want to dig down to see what's causing it, but so far, nothing has shown to be wrong on that level so digging down is utterly pointless.


Tell me, which smaller picture compensates for deadspace Shield Boosters being faster, stronger, more efficient, hitting at the start of cycle, being able to fit on smaller class ships etc.?

You're saying the big picture is balanced and as such there has to be something compensating for these boosters having vastly superior stats. What is it?