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[Winter] EW Cruisers

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Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-09-13 23:11:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:
The biggest issue I see is that blackbirds (and family) are already the trump card in unequal small scale engagements. If my enemy has five cruisers and my team has two or three, the one with the most jamming survives. The falcon and rook are really the ships that force me to break my engagement as soon as they enter the field (small gangs, remember). Every other EWAR platform is a pain, but not a gamechanger. The last thing we need is another ECM platform to screw over small gang fights. I'm all for buffing the cruiser line up, but it seems if the blackbird is going to get many of its basic stats increased, ECM needs nerfbat so small gangs can still exist. This is just my experience, but imo, ECM need attention before a more powerful blackbird is released.


You should look into ECCM implants. Seriously. Low grade if you fly frigates frequently or high grade for cruiser and above. They're cheap and very effective.

-Liang


This is my point exactly. There *are* ways around it, but I shouldn't have to buy a set of implants to counter the basic functionality of another ship.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#82 - 2012-09-13 23:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Harvey James wrote:
Also the tier 3 bc's are faster than most of these cruisers i mean wtf!!!!! there cruisers there meant to be mobile this is why people use bc's not cruisers cruisers are massively underpowered in many ways its speed/mobility is meant to be the redeeming feature over bc's better tank better dps better....
This is just another nail in the coffin of cruisers i hope you do better with the attack cruisers you need too Sad


Tier 3 BCs are basically cruisers with Battleship guns. I'd feel pretty comfortable taking on a Tier 3 BC with a cruiser.

-Liang

Ed: Calling them cruisers is a bit of a stretch. I don't think they have the tank of a cruiser. Maybe a bit more like a 70M ISK AF with a massive sig radius?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#83 - 2012-09-13 23:13:04 UTC
Aaron Greil wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:
The biggest issue I see is that blackbirds (and family) are already the trump card in unequal small scale engagements. If my enemy has five cruisers and my team has two or three, the one with the most jamming survives. The falcon and rook are really the ships that force me to break my engagement as soon as they enter the field (small gangs, remember). Every other EWAR platform is a pain, but not a gamechanger. The last thing we need is another ECM platform to screw over small gang fights. I'm all for buffing the cruiser line up, but it seems if the blackbird is going to get many of its basic stats increased, ECM needs nerfbat so small gangs can still exist. This is just my experience, but imo, ECM need attention before a more powerful blackbird is released.


You should look into ECCM implants. Seriously. Low grade if you fly frigates frequently or high grade for cruiser and above. They're cheap and very effective.

-Liang


This is my point exactly. There *are* ways around it, but I shouldn't have to buy a set of implants to counter the basic functionality of another ship.


Why shouldn't you have to take precautions to defend yourself against CC?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#84 - 2012-09-13 23:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
Harvey James wrote:


Yes but its T1 it should be more killable and i have already said it needs a buff to its mobility/tank to compensate but bottom line is T1 logi don't have better range than the T2 despite its ridiculous 1000% bonus its meant to be worse it shouldnt have a better bonus than rook or falcon i mean they both have same issue then if you're locked you cant cloak and you have crap tank and mobility but much higher ecm to compensate but its 200mil plus ship so it should a bb is cheap as hell why should it be immune to being killed by its excessive range bonus?



What your are saying, is that the BB has been overpowered for years. Funny.

All ships should have a viable way of doing its job and survive if piloted competently. Look at the EAFs. They cant speedtank, they cant sigtank, they cant cloak, the cant rangetank, they cant hardtank and consequently, they cant perform. Add to it a pricetag of 25-35 million and you have the recipie for the least flown ships on Tranqulity.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#85 - 2012-09-13 23:15:46 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also the tier 3 bc's are faster than most of these cruisers i mean wtf!!!!! there cruisers there meant to be mobile this is why people use bc's not cruisers cruisers are massively underpowered in many ways its speed/mobility is meant to be the redeeming feature over bc's better tank better dps better....
This is just another nail in the coffin of cruisers i hope you do better with the attack cruisers you need too Sad


Tier 3 BCs are basically cruisers with Battleship guns. I'd feel pretty comfortable taking on a Tier 3 BC with a cruiser.

-Liang

Ed: Calling them cruisers is a bit of a stretch. I don't think they have the tank of a cruiser. Maybe a bit more like a 70M ISK AF with a massive sig radius?


Helping or hurting?
Seriously you could kite a cruiser with a tier 3 bc so tracking wouldn't even be an issue seriously dont you agree cruisers need much more speed/mobility to be worth using as a whole?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#86 - 2012-09-13 23:18:03 UTC
Some of them could certainly use some nudging, but saying that as a class they need much more speed and mobility is just wrong. I don't even have a problem with slow brawl fit cruisers being kited by Tier 3s. They're fast and fragile, just they're meant to be - it's a good game mechanic.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#87 - 2012-09-13 23:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Liang Nuren wrote:
Some of them could certainly use some nudging, but saying that as a class they need much more speed and mobility is just wrong. I don't even have a problem with slow brawl fit cruisers being kited by Tier 3s. They're fast and fragile, just they're meant to be - it's a good game mechanic.

-Liang


so if BC's are allowed to be faster than a cruiser than what is the point of a cruiser?
might as-well remove them from the game as useless pieces of junk :P
And btw at the moment the tier 3 bc's have better tank then cruisers too

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2012-09-13 23:22:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:
snip


You should look into ECCM implants. Seriously. Low grade if you fly frigates frequently or high grade for cruiser and above. They're cheap and very effective.

-Liang


This is my point exactly. There *are* ways around it, but I shouldn't have to buy a set of implants to counter the basic functionality of another ship.


Why shouldn't you have to take precautions to defend yourself against CC?

-Liang


a full implant set for tech 1 cruiser level combat? I think that's a stretch. Maybe (and I mean maybe) for fighting rooks and falcons. Implant sets are usually the domain of turbo pirates and cap pilots. I am neither, I don't think you should have to be to fight a tech 1 cruiser.
Ark Anhammar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-09-13 23:22:50 UTC
I think the real issue with spreading around more ships with drone bays isn't their increased dps, which will not be affected much without bonuses, but the WAY increased amount of ECM drones on the field.

With the frigates coming with one drone and cruisers carrying two, we're going to be seeing many more ECM drones. I think control drones have their place, certainly; I just don't think every ship needs to bring them to the party.

Plus, and more of a minor point, but spreading around drone bays does detract from Gallente ships carrying drones. It's just not as special, for example, that an Incursus can field a light drone if every other frigate can, too, especially considering that Gallente ships can't offset "the drone creep" by carrying a missile launcher now, too.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#90 - 2012-09-13 23:24:05 UTC
An unbonused scripted TD hits for -50%. A bonused scripted TD on an Arbitrator hits for -70%. Given that, and given a desire to add some tracking disruption to your gang, would you rather be +1 Arbitrator or +1 TD Celestis? What about in a shield gang?

For the few minutes when I forgot that the Arbitrator's drone bonus was rather beefier, I worked it out that the Celestis would also be a way better 'neuting Arbitrator' than the Arbitrator, since it could run MWD+scram+web+TD+capbooster.

Anyway, don't discount the addition of a lowslot. For instance:

TQ Arbitrator: 1600mm plate, DCU, EANM --> 22k EHP, one empty lowslot, 200 PG left for anything else.
Winter Arbitrator: 800mm plate, DCU, EANM*2 --> 20k EHP, one empty lowslot, 500 PG left for anything else.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#91 - 2012-09-13 23:25:45 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Some of them could certainly use some nudging, but saying that as a class they need much more speed and mobility is just wrong. I don't even have a problem with slow brawl fit cruisers being kited by Tier 3s. They're fast and fragile, just they're meant to be - it's a good game mechanic.

-Liang


so if BC's are allowed to be faster than a cruiser than what is the point of a cruiser?
might as-well remove them from the game as useless pieces of junk :P


There are an enormous number of reasons why someone would fly cruisers instead of Tier 3 BCs. Here is a small and not complete list:
- Tier 3 BCs cost 14x as much, just for the hull. Their guns are 2-4x as expensive, and there are more of them.
- Tier 3 BCs have a frigate tank, which is to say it is made of paper.
- Cruisers have 320% better base tracking.
- Cruisers are just as fast when fit to kite.

Your post is a bad post and you should feel bad.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#92 - 2012-09-13 23:26:19 UTC
Aaron Greil wrote:

a full implant set for tech 1 cruiser level combat? I think that's a stretch. Maybe (and I mean maybe) for fighting rooks and falcons. Implant sets are usually the domain of turbo pirates and cap pilots. I am neither, I don't think you should have to be to fight a tech 1 cruiser.


Then fit an ECCM and stop whining?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#93 - 2012-09-13 23:29:02 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Some of them could certainly use some nudging, but saying that as a class they need much more speed and mobility is just wrong. I don't even have a problem with slow brawl fit cruisers being kited by Tier 3s. They're fast and fragile, just they're meant to be - it's a good game mechanic.

-Liang


so if BC's are allowed to be faster than a cruiser than what is the point of a cruiser?
might as-well remove them from the game as useless pieces of junk :P


There are an enormous number of reasons why someone would fly cruisers instead of Tier 3 BCs. Here is a small and not complete list:
- Tier 3 BCs cost 14x as much, just for the hull. Their guns are 2-4x as expensive, and there are more of them.
- Tier 3 BCs have a frigate tank, which is to say it is made of paper.
- Cruisers have 320% better base tracking.
- Cruisers are just as fast when fit to kite.

Your post is a bad post and you should feel bad.

-Liang


Tier 3's dont have a frigate tank they about 2k to its main tank like cruisers do but seriously i skipped the whole cruiser segment besides bb in favour of the good old drake so what does this tell you?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#94 - 2012-09-13 23:31:46 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

Tier 3's dont have a frigate tank they about 2k to its main tank like cruisers do but seriously i skipped the whole cruiser segment besides bb in favour of the good old drake so what does this tell you?


That the Drake is overpowered.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-09-13 23:33:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:

a full implant set for tech 1 cruiser level combat? I think that's a stretch. Maybe (and I mean maybe) for fighting rooks and falcons. Implant sets are usually the domain of turbo pirates and cap pilots. I am neither, I don't think you should have to be to fight a tech 1 cruiser.


Then fit an ECCM and stop whining?

-Liang


You know as well as I do that that's not always an option, especially in amarr ships with few mids.

All I'm asking for is ECM such that its not either absolute win or total fail. Seems that there should be some middle ground. Dampeners, TP, and even neuts all have some maneuvering room. That's not the case with ECM.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-09-13 23:34:53 UTC
Aaron Greil wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aaron Greil wrote:

a full implant set for tech 1 cruiser level combat? I think that's a stretch. Maybe (and I mean maybe) for fighting rooks and falcons. Implant sets are usually the domain of turbo pirates and cap pilots. I am neither, I don't think you should have to be to fight a tech 1 cruiser.


Then fit an ECCM and stop whining?

-Liang


You know as well as I do that that's not always an option, especially in amarr ships with few mids.

All I'm asking for is ECM such that its not either absolute win or total fail. Seems that there should be some middle ground. Dampeners, TP, and even neuts all have some maneuvering room. That's not the case with ECM.

As was stated in his podcast ecm is being reworked, it may not hit winter but it will be redone

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#97 - 2012-09-13 23:35:19 UTC
Aaron Greil wrote:

You know as well as I do that that's not always an option, especially in amarr ships with few mids.

All I'm asking for is ECM such that its not either absolute win or total fail. Seems that there should be some middle ground. Dampeners, TP, and even neuts all have some maneuvering room. That's not the case with ECM.


Yes, I'm all in favor of modifying the ECM mechanic. It's coming.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#98 - 2012-09-13 23:39:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

Tier 3's dont have a frigate tank they about 2k to its main tank like cruisers do but seriously i skipped the whole cruiser segment besides bb in favour of the good old drake so what does this tell you?


That the Drake is overpowered.

-Liang


How imaginative Smile but we already knew about the drake but you could take this example to all the races the answer would always be that bc's are better in every way that counts.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kesthely
Mestana
#99 - 2012-09-13 23:51:50 UTC
Bellicose just made the navy osprey obsolete:

With a higher base movement and higher mass, the speeds will be about the same, the Fittings and weapon layout is nearly identical, the difference is a range bonus for the osprey missile range vs bellicose target painting bonus.

Except there is another thing to look at, the bellicose has a 50mbit 50 m3 dronebay vs the navy osprey 10mbit 10m3 More utility or damage then the navy osprey, and best of all, it gets an additional low slot.

Could we not designate the bellicose as a disruption cruiser, but as a combat cruiser with a disruption bonus please?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#100 - 2012-09-13 23:53:22 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

How imaginative Smile but we already knew about the drake but you could take this example to all the races the answer would always be that bc's are better in every way that counts.


Which is why we're seeing the cruiser class rebalanced and (apparently) the Tier 2 BC class nudged down a bit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.