Player Features and Ideas Discussion

These changes look great, particularly the arbitrator, an already charming ship made better. The speed boost here is very welcome.

But I have to ask (I got to page 2 and didn't see anyone mention it). . .

Why is the most potent EWAR effectively double bonused compared to the others?

15% ECM strength?

WHY?

While on the subject, ECM should break locks but not render the ship effectively disabled for 20 seconds with the possibility of being permajammed thereby. Lock Breaking alone would 'balance' it. 5 seconds of Jam (in addition to the lock breaking) would certainly be adequete to make ECM an effective fleet asset without making it the loathesome and malice fomenting thing that it is. At the moment, as has been screaming from the pavement for years, and underscored by the last Alliance Tournament Final I might add, ECM is stupid. So, are you going to unsuck this horrid horrid thing?

Otherwise, these, the 'Combat' cruisers and the 'Attack' cruisers look truly awesome. More than I had hoped for tbh. Well done and thanks.

I hope these changes are reworked totally before being pushed. They're in the right direction, but they're not quite right. The answer to difficult to fly and flimsy ships isn't to throw more slots and fitting at them. It's to balance everything around them. Including gameplay.


I've already whined about this here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=692924#post692924

having ewar like tds affect everything and support like tracking links or tes/tcs affect everything as opposed to just turrets homogenises the game. yet again we're approaching a situation in which each class size has a long range and a short range weapons system, each range coming in four different skins

Given that Amarr and Gallente are the main drone races now, and Minmatar are the 2nd missile race, feel free to reduce the drone bay on the Bellicose further in exchange for another missile hardpoint

You have ~80% chance of landing a painter cycle at 90km. That's more than sufficient for most practical uses of missiles.

-Liang

On your first sentence - It does not homogenize the game. It fixes a hole in the ewar capabilities. There has been no specific ewar addressing missiles. Smarties are only a valid tactic with a large fleet and even there it was a tactic bourne out of desperation to do something to address drake blob missile spam. the use of them has it's own problems and it is frankly not very good. SMarties are better as an antidrone weapon anyway.

Buffing the other ewars now opens up use of those ships that heretofore was get an ecm boat or gtfo.

Also, currently amarr TD-ing is totally ineffectual against a whole range of ships (missile boats). Meanwhile all the other ewar boats can do something that affects all other ships (even painting) whether or not it has the most desirable utility in the particular combat circumstances. The balancing team is well aware that TDs could become op (and some argue they are already op when fit on missile boats to laugh at turret boats) and I would bet we see a module strength nerf accross the board on their turret and missile effects making them rather weak on an unbonused ship.

On your second sentence - The range on heavy missiles was an anomaly that had to be fixed. There should not be only one race in this game that can effectively own a whole combat tactic for itself. Here that being sniping. (and I'm looking at the destroyer changes and wondering how the balancing team is missing the problem that a 10% per level bonus on the already longest range guns presents). It is fine to give some races a slight advantage and thus a preference for a particular tactic. It is bad design to effectively engineer whole races out of a whole tactic or limit their fittings such that they can only engage in one tactic (particularly when other mechanics in the game make that tactic unworkable - see Gallente as balster only but weighted down failures for example).

WHat are you talking about? I haven't been flying Lili in combat for aquite a while (haven't hardly been logging her in tbh, and using other characters for pvp atm). And even when I was using Lili I wasn't fitting TDs and wasn't flying curses and pilgrims most the time.

TDs are being fit to many of the rebalanced and buffed frigs atm. Hookbills, Condors, and Merlins having a field day killing turret frigs and destroyers in fw plexes.

And no, I don't want TDs buffed. I want them to affect missiles. That is so amarr has an ewar that is universally effective at some level just like every other race has one.

But in fact I want TD base strength nerfed. That does two things. It avoids the TD as mandatory I-win like the old multispec ecm modules used to be. It also makes amarr ewar boats almost as desirable in gangs and maybe even fleets as ecm boats are currently. In fact I want the base strength on painters and damps nerfed as well. Then we can have maybe 15-30% per level bonuses on the ships that are bonused for those modules just like we have for ecm boats. That design got rid of the unbonused ewar I-win module and kept the ewar boats themselves desirable for ecm. It can do the same for the other ewar boats. And that would be good for the game as a whole.

If the base turret and missile disrupting effects on the modules is made weak then missile users have less to worry. It helps fix an emerging imbalance. And it makes more than just the Caldari ewar boats desirable. Win for everyone tbh.

edit - and while I'm talking ewar I think the ecm jam duration needs to be less than the cycle time on the module (we can argue numbers on that) and the non-ecm ewar modules need to have shorter optimals and longer fall-off ranges so as to provide them with a chance based mechanic (ecm retaining long optimal and the chance based mechanic). Either that or ecm could lose the chance based mechanic but also lose the duration on the jam and maybe only break a lock. In total whatever set of ewar changes are made they could ironically lead to ecm boats losing their automatic status as primary, which ecm pilots might in fact enjoy

TP's are in for an overhaul as is all eWar. Until we know where they land I'd say it is premature to suggest muddying the waters by moving bonuses to and fro.

All the half-assed T1 logistic cruisers are getting the chance to grow up and become proper logistics .. includes the Scythe.

And yeah, proposed changes so far do point quite clearly towards a boost to small-gang action. Seven plus years of CCP continually saying the small gang is/was/should be a primary focus and nothing happens until they bring in the Fozz man.

Balance of these ewar cruiser can be looked at mathematically. Each type would need its own formulas but they can all be rendered down to what percentage of APPLIED DPS they take off or in the Belicoses case add to the field. I think they should be very effective so that it is exciting for new cruiser pilots to be an important part of the battle. Remember, they get no kill mails without whoring. Applying dps is fun, ewar should be too. Making an ewar pilot important should increase overall game value by increasing the fun factor.

Caldari Ewar has always been superior, it shouldn't change but the other forms need to be closer in effectiveness. Its kinda fun because of the thin hull but also the amount of damage it can take off the field and it teaches a lot about ship ID, range. I consider the BBird to take off about 30% of the damage from its target and it has 4 or 5 active modules. with equal ships it take down 1and1/3 to 1and2/3 ship dps. Go ahead now and add a little missle dps to the gang output.

The Arbitrator's td take about 28% of applied dps per available midslot. Less available slots but balance is about right if you want to leave the ewar edge to Caldari per racial history. If the slot additions add some dps output. It should stay viable.

The Celestis range bonuses are much needed but its going to need super fast lock times to be effective because its contribution to damage mitigation is limited to the first shot. In a one and a half minute battle it could mitigate 30% of short range and in a longer battle it could delay snipers thereby taking them out but damage mitigation at this point, seems to me, related to engagement length. I don't agree that the celestis is fixed though you've addressed its major range shortcoming. It could be nice if it was dual ewar bonused to that ecm mods could break locks and multiply sensor dampeners effectiveness beyond first lock. Simply a range bonus on Caldari ecm could make a nice tandem that could take 30% damage off a few ships. More midslots to balance? Hmm Beli and Celestis with dual multiplying ewars???

The Belicose doesn't subtract damage from the field. It adds it. A TP adds damage several ways. It can decrease lock time. Best case is the fleet locks a second sooner. The first shot can be decisive. The cycle times are to long though but it is apart of the applied DPS formula. Everybody knows Sig bloom equals missile damage but it also means turret tracking. These need balanced to each other on the TP/missle overhaul but the majority of the battle is turrets. On a turret your lucky to get 7% increase to dps. (I still need to run this with lazers and hybrids) ONLY If a TP can be cycled and coordinated with multiple strikes it starts to balance. 4 guns adding 7% is 28%. But your talking 4 sets of guns coordinated before the TP approaches other ewar with no edge given for the teamwork effort over other ewar. .Also, A seven percent boost isn't going to be noticeable enough to be fun for the other dps pilots. They will still get heckled- no fun. But, when you put a tracking link on somebody, they know it and appreciate it. It become fun again. Now a couple ships are adding 13% applied damage and the others shooting primary are adding 7%. Your up to that 30% number with a small gang. Add the Belis missile damage its like bringing two ships worth of applied DPS. Something like an aggressive BBIRD

Run some simulations with different gang sizes and balance applied and mitigated DPS. Pull out the tracking formula, consider lock times, Balance effectiveness, Go ahead and give the edge to Caldari and that paper hull it deserves it. :)

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. My perspective is different than yours. I apologize for leading you to believe that a fellow pilot might be a fool. Surely having to judge others is a heavy burden I wish I hadn't pput on you. One area My post differed is that In a previous post (2 up) I suggested that a TL Bonus be the second bonus on the Beli INSTEAD of the missile ROF Bonus. Otherwise TP's would have to bloom sigs like a MW.

On point one, Increasing damage toward the theoretical limit is what I call applied damage. I used that term in my post prior to the one you quoted. Applied damage is the opposite of theorycraft (eft) from my perspective because I'm talking about actual applied and NOT theoretical maximum. I DO have to make assumptions to calculate it though of course. Assuming a range is a bit different than theory but in advance, I used many estimates in my calcs. Absolutes are not possible in a general discussion involving different guns ammo skills ships etc etc. I had to use averages from experience. My memory is not flawless. Applied is still an estimate in other words.

Point two correctly assumes the TP is prelocked. I wasn't trying to make a huge point that decreased lock time due to TP increased damage a lot. On the contrary, I was acknowledging it had an effect but downplaying its role. Lock time needs to be considered to properly balance ewar. Its a huge part of the calcs that can't be ignored. In fact sensor strengths, if the rest is pretty closed to balance could be used to hone the edge. This goes for all ships. fast lock on ewar is real nice. TP is NOT the answer to this though as you noted.

On your point about sig bloom and tracking. To my knowledge the chance to hit formula has always been called the tracking formula. Gun tracking is only one factor in how the tracking formula works. Your splitting hairs with semantics, it sounds like you understand tracking so your real objection should be about the nomenclature of the tracking formula. Words can have more than one meaning. I'm using it in a general way in context of the whole formula and your using it specifically in the context of just the turret. All we have to agree on is the wording to reach understanding.

With regard to my applied dps calculations, I have stated it doesn't take into all types of turrets. I worked these numbers on autocannons, afterburner frigs versus frigs and cruisers versus cruisers. I did not run velocities but I thought I estimated to the high side on them. I used a 1000 and 700 which would decrease damage rather than increase. for ranges I used optimal plus half of falloff. TP sig I used 40% TL I think I used scripted and rounded to 40% also. Yes I am estimating. They were quick numbers. Roughly the calculations went like this: chance to hit .367, tp .60, .60-.367 =.233. Now take that .233 and divide it by the original chance to hit and you get 6.3% and this varies with tp skill and gunnery skills among other things.

Pretty sure I ran the Tracking link numbers off a boosted scythe with scripts to come up with the final 13 to 14% improvement in chance to hit. Actual damage per shot doesn't go up like you are probably observing but the number of hits goes up instead.

My larger number is not hits from multiple turrets from one ship but from multiple hits. Target painter is one to many. I'll concede the point. If 4 ships all hit with 7% more damage, it does not equal 28% but 7 because the previous dps was probably a simultaneous strike also. TP doesn't change how the fleet operates except to encourage staying on called targets because they are painted.

I still think my Tracking LInk second bonus is the best way to balance the Belis Ewar within the context of balancing the amount of DPS added or subtracted from the field. My objection to the web idea are the ranges. One is short and the other is long. Webs are great and work on the same principals but usually its nice to match ranges on our fits. Its a real good idea though.

Like I said, I feel these conversations can't be an exact science. Until some constraints on the discussed parameters are laid out, broad general terms keep the thinking more fluid and open. There are so many variables here.. Often the conversation just stops at: BBIRD ECM = bad = nerf:) Target painting? I can't remember the last discussion. Sensor dampeners? My idea is they would work nice to pull logi into range and delay their repping, taking tank off the field. Same with snipers but we would need much longer range. I need to look closer at that proposal too.

Another way I have looked at ewar instead of damage off and on the field is to equalize skill points. 6 or 7% damage isn't much but it can be looked at as a couple extra skill levels Besides equalizing damage, it can equalize noobs a little bit. This is just another perspective I'll share. Keep in mind my 7% is frigate versus frigate, cruiser versus cruiser. Your missle examples mix cruiser and frigate. We're not quite on equal footing yet to compare tracking links, target painters, webs, missiles and turrets.

If you look at ship base sigs and gun resolutions you'll start to see how that number skews as you mix ship classes. These kind of TP issues need to be made more public. To fix TP, It would have to bloom a target like a Microwarp! Maybe 300% and not 500 but I think MW bloom to much also. That's a general statement, not exact. At that kind of bloom they could be effective enough that people would learn how to use them. Then they could scale them back a bit. I agree TP are way off. 6 or 7 % versus 30% isn't even close. The problem then becomes stupidly effective when using missiles. I see your missile numbers, painter doesn't work bad on missiles. 30%? I'm back to a turret/painter problem.

You asked how I'd fly a Beli? I was envisioning flying it at longer range somewhat like a blackbird. I do consider the painter long range for a cruiser, I need to look at beli locking range suddenly. :) The reason I think dual bonus is alright is because I thought they dual bonused the Blackbird and Celestis. I'm good with that as long as T2 remains balanced right. Fragile cheap powerful ships are fun.

We have to work out numbers for your proposal and mine and try to come up with 30% effectiveness or thereabouts. Dual bonus both ways. TP/TL and TP/web. We have to match the ranges. I like brawlers too but then it needs to be faster. get a preferred range worked out and rework our numbers to find something that changes the field as much as other ewar. Lean toward helping turrets instead of Missiles just because Minmatar are predominately turrets.

Turret resolutions might need looked at to fix painters so they help turrets as much as missiles. Its just not right a turret race's ewar help missiles which are its racial enemy.