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How does ships turn in space?

First post
Author
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#81 - 2012-09-13 23:02:12 UTC
A gyro works by momentum applied to its rotational disk. Not gravity. Unless its turned off. But then its just a disk inside three rings.

Either way:

The ships in EVE are funky:

1. Due to them being geometrically assymetrical, their Principal Axis of rotation are not aligned to the ship's axis.
2. Due to them being probably also mass-assymetrical, The above is even worsened.

The fact that they rotate the way they do, is of course, because of the EVE's main code does not support the Inertia properties of the volume enclosed by the ship. Or more specifically, the projected area in any given view (Front, Side, Top) in relation to the Center of Mass, or the Geometrical Center of Mass, does not allow for the final Principal Axis to be aligned according to X Y Z.

This fact is ignored, and instead we receive an Inertia modifier that ammount to how hard that ship is to turn. We see it by affecting agility and whatnot.

In reality, should the EVE ships be built the way they are representend, they would more easlly turn into some directions in relation to others.

Now, to this we add the assymetrical displacement of engines.

While it might be true that this arrangement promotes certain orbits, it also promotes certain specific orbits. Or more realitiscally, it promotes that the ship should more easelly turn, around its principal axis (One of them), towards a given side.

If the ships were done assymetrical on purpose, and the engines were placed in such a way that they'd compensate for the Principal Axis's different arragement towards our normal XYZ axis, then the ship could be engineer to turn equally fast in all directions. However, such is a needless engineering undertaking, as it would have just been simpler to make the ship assymetrical than fine tune the engines to have correct mass displacement properties.

This all is unchanged if we assume that the entire ship rotates around its "warp drive". Even if we assume this to be a completly isolated-from-the-ship item, held together by riboons of make believe of fields of super duperness, when the ship would rotate around it, it would still rotate preferencial to the Principal axis, centered now upon the Warp Drive, ie, its "center of mass" so to speak.

So...

I'm not saying everything should be spherical or cylinde-like, but if you want a ship to turn equally fast to the left or right, then it should be symetrical on its vertical plane, or at least inertially-symetrical. An example would be a large engine placed next to a cylinder, with a smaller engine posted farther away, to a given ratio that a bit of research by the reader can uncouver (hint, its related to the quadritic value of the distance). If we think that the ship is then assymetrical on the middle plane, then it means it'll probably have a easier time turning upwards or downwards, depeneding on where its center of mass is.

This also affects rotational ability.

So in sum, Inertially speaking, its convient that ship are symetrical. This does not imply an actual symetry.

Also, our brain has the ability to understand this as a fundamental level, visually speaking, and thats why some things do look balanced while others don't.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-09-14 00:12:43 UTC
Morgan North wrote:
A gyro works by momentum applied to its rotational disk. Not gravity. Unless its turned off. But then its just a disk inside three rings.

Either way:

The ships in EVE are funky:

1. Due to them being geometrically assymetrical, their Principal Axis of rotation are not aligned to the ship's axis.
2. Due to them being probably also mass-assymetrical, The above is even worsened.

The fact that they rotate the way they do, is of course, because of the EVE's main code does not support the Inertia properties of the volume enclosed by the ship. Or more specifically, the projected area in any given view (Front, Side, Top) in relation to the Center of Mass, or the Geometrical Center of Mass, does not allow for the final Principal Axis to be aligned according to X Y Z.

This fact is ignored, and instead we receive an Inertia modifier that ammount to how hard that ship is to turn. We see it by affecting agility and whatnot.

In reality, should the EVE ships be built the way they are representend, they would more easlly turn into some directions in relation to others.

Now, to this we add the assymetrical displacement of engines.

While it might be true that this arrangement promotes certain orbits, it also promotes certain specific orbits. Or more realitiscally, it promotes that the ship should more easelly turn, around its principal axis (One of them), towards a given side.

If the ships were done assymetrical on purpose, and the engines were placed in such a way that they'd compensate for the Principal Axis's different arragement towards our normal XYZ axis, then the ship could be engineer to turn equally fast in all directions. However, such is a needless engineering undertaking, as it would have just been simpler to make the ship assymetrical than fine tune the engines to have correct mass displacement properties.

This all is unchanged if we assume that the entire ship rotates around its "warp drive". Even if we assume this to be a completly isolated-from-the-ship item, held together by riboons of make believe of fields of super duperness, when the ship would rotate around it, it would still rotate preferencial to the Principal axis, centered now upon the Warp Drive, ie, its "center of mass" so to speak.

So...

I'm not saying everything should be spherical or cylinde-like, but if you want a ship to turn equally fast to the left or right, then it should be symetrical on its vertical plane, or at least inertially-symetrical. An example would be a large engine placed next to a cylinder, with a smaller engine posted farther away, to a given ratio that a bit of research by the reader can uncouver (hint, its related to the quadritic value of the distance). If we think that the ship is then assymetrical on the middle plane, then it means it'll probably have a easier time turning upwards or downwards, depeneding on where its center of mass is.

This also affects rotational ability.

So in sum, Inertially speaking, its convient that ship are symetrical. This does not imply an actual symetry.

Also, our brain has the ability to understand this as a fundamental level, visually speaking, and thats why some things do look balanced while others don't.


I think you're neglecting the sheer brilliance of the Caldari ship designers. One guy designs the right half, the other guy designs the left.

they have never met or talked to each other

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

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Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#83 - 2012-09-14 01:13:56 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:


I think you're neglecting the sheer brilliance of the Caldari ship designers. One guy designs the right half, the other guy designs the left.

they have never met or talked to each other



Except if you look at the Rokh, you can deduce that the two designers must have passed eachother in the hall once, and maybe gave eachother a long stare.
Pipa Porto
#84 - 2012-09-14 01:33:38 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
I think you're neglecting the sheer brilliance of the Caldari ship designers. One guy designs the right half, the other guy designs the left.

they have never met or talked to each other



And they call the Minmatar the masters of the Duct Tape.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Renon Graf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-09-14 05:10:31 UTC
Some interesting explanations of New Eden propulsion technology. Also interesting, the current speed of the Voyager 1 spacecraft is 17,260 m/s.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#86 - 2012-09-14 05:24:29 UTC
Well, concidering the ships use giant fusion torches for forward movement, I'd say ion thrusters. The reason they are not visible is simple: They are very small.

Another possibility would be gravity projection... not sure if EVE's tech is advanced like that, though.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-09-14 10:06:27 UTC
Mr Steinberg wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Gyroscopes. Big gyroscopes.


How does gyroscopes work in a vaccum?


Same as any other fast rotating object in space I presume...

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#88 - 2012-09-14 10:17:06 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:


I think you're neglecting the sheer brilliance of the Caldari ship designers. One guy designs the right half, the other guy designs the left.

they have never met or talked to each other



Except if you look at the Rokh, you can deduce that the two designers must have passed eachother in the hall once, and maybe gave eachother a long stare.


Thats how things are done inthe modern day too. In many cases only the shipyards/final assemblers know what will be assembled, including right and left halfs. Some individuals know parts and bits of it, but in general, the lower ranking workers, responsbile for the machines that produce individual components, are not, or may not be, aware of what it is being used to.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-09-14 10:31:40 UTC
Renon Graf wrote:
Some interesting explanations of New Eden propulsion technology. Also interesting, the current speed of the Voyager 1 spacecraft is 17,260 m/s.


Dramiel can go faster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tF1Up_xXSI

and on another note, Voyager doesn't have a warp drive, so no matter how fast it is, we will be faster... If we find something to align to.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Mr Steinberg
Destruction Creation
#90 - 2012-09-20 10:52:11 UTC
Just reead that nasa is looking into "warp" drive :D
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-09-20 19:40:42 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Mr Steinberg wrote:

My kid came over and asked me what makes eve space ships turn, and i had to make up some random stuff about stuff he cant see on the screen. Anyone have a good answer to this? Big smile



You set a new heading and the game engine proceeds to rotate your ship model according to a predefined rotation based ob where you were pointed and where you want to point.

Seriously, CCP ****** their physics hard in the beginning because they lacked the budget to do it properly. Then they came up with this fluidic space nonsense to cover for it.

It needs to be redone in the worst way.


Not at all. I think it adds a very sci-fi feel to it called "hand-wavium" all good sci-fi has that. I like that they didn't go with regular vacuum physics because it makes it unique and is plausible.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#92 - 2012-09-20 23:14:27 UTC
I've played games with a full Newtonian physics engine.

Unless you start in pretty much the same place, you end up jousting, barely able to see the other ship. Fly towards them, starting firing when they come into range (don't forget that they're moving towards you too, so the range calculation is a little more complex, if your weapons have travel time), then turn, and shoot at them as you fly past. At that point, you might have to stop, if the relative velocity is higher than your weapon's speed. And that's only if you've both decided to fight on the same plane. Otherwise you will have to work on that, too.

It wasn't particularly fun.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Bigpimping
Pimp Inc.
#93 - 2012-09-21 00:02:30 UTC
Using space propellers of course
Echrah
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-09-21 04:07:58 UTC
Doctor ForumAlt wrote:
The ship never turns.

Chuck Norris rotates space around your ship.


Fixed that for you.

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