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New Craze That Id Like To Know It It's Considered An Exploit.

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Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-09-11 17:16:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
William Walker wrote:
Why aren't you collecting them right now?
I'm gonna go with this, especially since finding someone's Ogre IIs abandoned at a gate has been my best payday so far.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#42 - 2012-09-11 17:17:47 UTC
My alt received a warning for this a couple days ago. A player petitioned me for decloaking him, not generating lag. However, I was still formally warned for doing this and all drones were despawned. Upon petitioning the warning I was told that although the petition wasn't for lag, it was decided that my drones were creating lag which is against the EULA. So the warning stuck despite no one complaining about lag or even noticing any.

My experience with petitions is pretty consistent tbh. The "good guy" (carebear, bot, new player) typically gets his stuff back and the "bad guy" (aggressor or anyone with negative sec status) gets nothing except warnings/bans. It doesn't matter what it is. In the case of bad guy vs bad guy, "the logs show nothing."

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#43 - 2012-09-11 17:17:58 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Greetings

Really? Since when is free stuff an exploit. Get your haulers out and loot. Thats like saying the wreaks left behind on gate after a fleet battle are an exploit. Waaaiiiittt a second this is a troll right?

east


I hear it's a good idea for you to sit around picking up free stuff in your hauler while 2 Drakes and a Cane shoot it at close range. If the drones had just come from the 2 drakes and a cane it wouldn't be a big deal, but when they've brought 10+ Domis worth of light drones to the gate it's a ******* problem.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#44 - 2012-09-11 17:19:38 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
My alt received a warning for this a couple days ago. A player petitioned me for decloaking him, not generating lag. However, I was still formally warned for doing this and all drones were despawned. Upon petitioning the warning I was told that although the petition wasn't for lag, it was decided that my drones were creating lag which is against the EULA. So the warning stuck despite no one complaining about lag or even noticing any.

My experience with petitions is pretty consistent tbh. The "good guy" (carebear, bot, new player) typically gets his stuff back and the "bad guy" (aggressor or anyone with negative sec status) gets nothing except warnings/bans. It doesn't matter what it is. In the case of bad guy vs bad guy, "the logs show nothing."


You cannot honestly say that spamming the gate with a carrier's worth of light drones is a legitimate tactic. As one low sec pirate to another: you deserved that warning.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-09-11 17:24:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
My alt received a warning for this a couple days ago. A player petitioned me for decloaking him, not generating lag. However, I was still formally warned for doing this and all drones were despawned. Upon petitioning the warning I was told that although the petition wasn't for lag, it was decided that my drones were creating lag which is against the EULA. So the warning stuck despite no one complaining about lag or even noticing any.

My experience with petitions is pretty consistent tbh. The "good guy" (carebear, bot, new player) typically gets his stuff back and the "bad guy" (aggressor or anyone with negative sec status) gets nothing except warnings/bans. It doesn't matter what it is. In the case of bad guy vs bad guy, "the logs show nothing."


You cannot honestly say that spamming the gate with a carrier's worth of light drones is a legitimate tactic. As one low sec pirate to another: you deserved that warning.

-Liang

How do you know it was a carrier's worth of light drones?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#46 - 2012-09-11 17:26:58 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

How do you know it was a carrier's worth of light drones?


I'm well familiar with the tactic. It takes *a lot* of drones and a significant amount of work setting them up to consistently decloak people. A far better tactic is drag bubbles and anchored cans. Either way: the tactic is bullshit and a well known way to get a warning.

He deserved the warning and his ire at CCP for pulling a bullshit quasi exploit is not justified. I've been petitioned hundreds of times and never received a warning for doing something in game.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Othran
Route One
#47 - 2012-09-11 17:29:47 UTC
Its not an exploit. Probably Roll

I escalated a petition a while back involving a certain system with near enough 200 bubbles on/around the only gate. Bubbles cause a hell of a lot more lag than cans/drones - both client and server-side.

The rule is simple, and as normal with CCP, as clear as mud/as useful as a chocolate teapot :

You may anchor as many bubbles as you wish provided it is for a strategic reason. Likewise you may use as many drones/jetcans as you wish provided it is for a strategic reason. Anchoring so many bubbles/jettisoning so many drones that it has an adverse effect on server performance is not permitted.

So there you go. Its OK until it isn't. Probably - and even then you have no way of knowing P

Typical CCP fudge.
Mr Steinberg
Destruction Creation
#48 - 2012-09-11 17:39:17 UTC
Read an ccp reply a while back; As long as it doesnt induce grid lag, its not an exploit. Seems to me its difficult to know when that occurs. Personally I recommend petition a loss where this tactic is beeing used. Attention
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#49 - 2012-09-11 19:08:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
My alt received a warning for this a couple days ago. A player petitioned me for decloaking him, not generating lag. However, I was still formally warned for doing this and all drones were despawned. Upon petitioning the warning I was told that although the petition wasn't for lag, it was decided that my drones were creating lag which is against the EULA. So the warning stuck despite no one complaining about lag or even noticing any.

My experience with petitions is pretty consistent tbh. The "good guy" (carebear, bot, new player) typically gets his stuff back and the "bad guy" (aggressor or anyone with negative sec status) gets nothing except warnings/bans. It doesn't matter what it is. In the case of bad guy vs bad guy, "the logs show nothing."


You cannot honestly say that spamming the gate with a carrier's worth of light drones is a legitimate tactic. As one low sec pirate to another: you deserved that warning.

-Liang

I'm gonna argue the point here and state that is as legitimate a tactic as MWD+cloak

--
@ James, yes, it is a carrier or two's worth of drones. Ideally you need to create a Dyson sphere of drones spaced about 2km apart, with a radius of 12-13km.
It takes a lot of drones and a lot of time to set up correctly. Far more time and effort for instance, than would be required to send a scout through or simply check the map for pirate activity.


I just love the general consensus that pirates should get creative with how we get PvP, and then when we actually decide to think outside the box like with dirty bubbles or boomerang tactics we get banhammers instead :p

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Jim Era
#50 - 2012-09-11 19:11:21 UTC
maybe because pirates deserve to be ****** by those like them?

Wat™
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#51 - 2012-09-11 19:26:53 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
I'm gonna argue the point here and state that is as legitimate a tactic as MWD+cloak


No, it really isn't.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-09-11 19:31:48 UTC
I don't buy that, Liang.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2012-09-11 19:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
You don't buy that MWD-cloak is more legitimate than drone spamming a gate? Of course it is. People don't get banned for MWD cloak and they do for drone spam. Drone spam simultaneously attacks the server, the game client, the overview, as well as 100% countering all cloaking within the sphere.

If you don't think that drone spam is an exploit, why don't you go drop a few hundred drones off outside the Jita undock? Gotta make sure nobody cloaks warping out of there!

-Liang

Ed: But the real kicker here is that people get warned and banned for drone spam. CCP disagrees, and that's all that really matters.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#54 - 2012-09-11 19:42:18 UTC
There's a lot of bulls*** in this thread. CCP's policy on this is what it has ALWAYS been. They haven't changed anything, and there are no new rules.

From the original thread waaaaaaay back in the day:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Normally I would direct anyone with specific question to our petition system. However, we get this question a lot and a large part of our players seem to think that this is an exploit; thus let me answer this question as clear as possible:

No, this is not an exploit and is fully allowed.

Using debris to decloak ships is a perfectly valid strategy. You can use cans, drones, and any other object that decloaks a ship. This is simply a clever use of normal game mechanics.

The Exception: The only thing you may not do is deploy so much debris that it causes lag.

How much debris will cause lag? Well, there is no hard answer for that as this is highly dependent on too many factors to formulate a definition that can always be applied. Common sense will need to be applied (and GMs have certain protocols to use to determine if it causes lag or not, to make sure that all GMs use the same benchmark).

It doesn't matter who is on what end of the petition. If you feel that you were given a warning for using objects in space to de-cloak people and the cause was not lag, I would recommend you escalate your petition.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#55 - 2012-09-11 19:44:20 UTC
Gogela wrote:

It doesn't matter who is on what end of the petition. If you feel that you were given a warning for using objects in space to de-cloak people and the cause was not lag, I would recommend you escalate your petition.


Generally speaking, the tactic isn't worthwhile if you aren't using enough **** to cause lag. It takes a lot of debris.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#56 - 2012-09-11 19:49:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gogela wrote:

It doesn't matter who is on what end of the petition. If you feel that you were given a warning for using objects in space to de-cloak people and the cause was not lag, I would recommend you escalate your petition.


Generally speaking, the tactic isn't worthwhile if you aren't using enough **** to cause lag. It takes a lot of debris.

-Liang

That's up to the GM decide. If they warp in and encounter lag they'll call it an exploit. If not they won't. If it's less than 50 drones I don't think you'll have a problem... but again the GMs will check it out and decide. If you get a bulls*** call from a GM you escalate it and they'll solve it. This same conversation comes up over and over again and it's been debated to death, but the policy is pretty simple imho, and has not changed.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#57 - 2012-09-11 19:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Gogela wrote:

That's up to the GM decide. If they warp in and encounter lag they'll call it an exploit. If not they won't. If it's less than 50 drones I don't think you'll have a problem... but again the GMs will check it out and decide. If you get a bulls*** call from a GM you escalate it and they'll solve it. This same conversation comes up over and over again and it's been debated to death, but the policy is pretty simple imho, and has not changed.


If you think people are doing this with a mere 50 drones, I don't think you've actually encountered the kind of stuff they're doing. You can squeeze 75 T1 lights into a single Domi and people don't just do it with 1 Domi. The best way that I've seen this done is via 3-4 Gilas orbiting the gate and dropping+abandoning drones. Usually multiple times. We are talking hundreds or thousands of T1 lights for reasonable effectiveness.

And yes, this is what I tend to see when roaming Aridia.

-Liang

Ed: Really, even 2 Domi/Ishtars doing this yields 2x as many drones as you estimate. Blink

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#58 - 2012-09-11 20:03:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gogela wrote:

That's up to the GM decide. If they warp in and encounter lag they'll call it an exploit. If not they won't. If it's less than 50 drones I don't think you'll have a problem... but again the GMs will check it out and decide. If you get a bulls*** call from a GM you escalate it and they'll solve it. This same conversation comes up over and over again and it's been debated to death, but the policy is pretty simple imho, and has not changed.


If you think people are doing this with a mere 50 drones, I don't think you've actually encountered the kind of stuff they're doing. You can squeeze 75 T1 lights into a single Domi and people don't just do it with 1 Domi. The best way that I've seen this done is via 3-4 Gilas orbiting the gate and dropping+abandoning drones. Usually multiple times. We are talking hundreds or thousands of T1 lights for reasonable effectiveness.

And yes, this is what I tend to see when roaming Aridia.

-Liang

Well... you are walking a grey line when you spam that many. I've actually found it effective enough with a handful. Yah if you spam out enough to cover the whole gate it's probably getting into the kind of numbers where you are getting lag. If that's the case see above...

Usually in practice I've seen people building little drone spheres... but I've never actually seen one where they are using hundreds of drones. In null I like to put a drag bubble 600km behind the gate and build a wall of anchored cans in between the two gates I'm lining up and my Onyx bubble... makes a decent blockade runner trap. 20 cans or so is sufficient in that context. If you use hundreds or thousands of drones... yah that's probably going to cause lag. Again... see above. Common sense solves the problem of understanding the policy 99.9% of the time. If people are using thousands of drones, yah they'll loose that petition.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2012-09-11 20:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Which is my point: people that are doing this don't do anything as reasonable as using a drag bubble with a dozen decloak cans. The tactic really isn't very effective until you're pretty far over the "I'm a ****" line and deserve your warning/ban.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, the fact that Roth and Copa got warnings/bans for it tells me all I need to know about how they were set up.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#60 - 2012-09-11 20:06:01 UTC
EVE eUNIch