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Dev blog: Ship balancing winter update

First post First post First post
Author
Optimo Sebiestor
The New Eden School of trade
Organization of Skill Extracting Corporations
#241 - 2012-09-20 13:47:13 UTC
Nerfing missiles? Shocked
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#242 - 2012-09-20 13:53:55 UTC
This whole balancing style has me a bit worried... While the individual tweaks to ships are fantastic and well thought out (great job btw yitterbium) I'm a bit worried about how this power creep will effect t2 ships and even other t1 ships that are not going to be addressed. As seen with many of the frigate buffs, these new cheap t1 ships ended up becoming more powerful than some faction ships of the same class. If all these more significant cruiser changes go live w/o any indication to address t2s and faction cruisers asap there is going to be significant "gap" in relevant content.

My suggestion is that if you're going to be changing t1 variants of ships, you sure as **** better go ahead and change/balance those t2 variants as well. I'd much rather push out the introduction of these ships until far more ships are included.
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#243 - 2012-09-20 18:12:49 UTC
BC's were perfectly balanced , ppl are just to ******** to fly **** properly and counter other fleet doctrines

******* pointless "balancing" lol :D

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2012-09-21 09:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Regarding the new destroyers, wouldn't it be a good idea to "fix" drones before you add new done boats?

The method of controlling drones is terrible and we lack things like rigs and implants to buff them which prevents them from being on par with other damage systems.
Possum's Awesome
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo
#245 - 2012-09-22 22:24:03 UTC
who cares @ Vagabond?

My Comet's police light still doesn't work, and my ishtar is still the wrong colour!
Senarian Tyme
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#246 - 2012-09-23 16:56:51 UTC
Instead of blindly nerfing heavy missiles, the drake or other simple but mindless nerf approaches, maybe its time to realize that a more productive countermeasure would be to put in counter agents to these factors.

CCP already put in the defender missiles (and even upgraded them a bit this last year). but isntead of such a silly defense system which requires the same launchers to defend against it, and then ONLY for the ships carrying them..... why not put in a true fleet support ship with a dedicated role to counter such threats. A T2 gallente ship could be introduced which provides point defense for fleet assets within a certain range, against incoming missiles launched at further distances. i.e. if a heavy missile has to travel more than 50km, it can be picked off by the fleet defense ship. This would force heavy missile boats to a closer range, at which point HAMs would start to become a viable substitute.

Other defense ships could also be introduced to counter other weapons types then too down the road, and even slipped into a few of the PVE events to spice things up at times.

The other option I could see would be putting a minimum arming range onto the heavy missiles, say 10KM which could be pushed down with skill to about 5km.

There are better solutions which would grow the game available than simply nerfing things into oblivion, please realize that role based focused is not the same as everybody is exactly the same and things just look different. Please dont try to dumb down EVE in a poor attempt to broaden your market.
ISquishWorms
#247 - 2012-09-24 18:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
Nevermind.

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2012-09-25 09:57:48 UTC
Possum's Awesome wrote:
who cares @ Vagabond?

My Comet's police light still doesn't work, and my ishtar is still the wrong colour!


Yeah is hate that they made some of the Gal ships blue. The Ishkur looks rubbish now Sad
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2012-09-25 20:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikolai Dostoyevski
Senarian Tyme wrote:
Instead of blindly nerfing heavy missiles, the drake or other simple but mindless nerf approaches, maybe its time to realize that a more productive countermeasure would be to put in counter agents to these factors.

.


Yeah, I like the idea of a mid or low-slot "Point Defense Gatling Gun" system. Has a % chance of destroying each incoming missile - and has a better chance of destroying a larger missile than a small missile. Perhaps a better chance of destroying either guided or unguided missiles as well for game balance reasons, although I'm not sure that would make much logical sense.

There - now you have a better version of the defender missile with a chance based result that ships can equip. The PDS would need to apply only to the missiles targeting that ship so you couldn't just sit 50 ships on top of each of other and make sure no missiles get through (e.g. a firewall).

Alternatively, maybe you create a similar module that goes in the mid or low slot that any ship (or maybe even just a capital ship?) can equip and that has a 5km or so range for taking out missiles, but has a reload time and can only shoot down 1 missile at a time. Then, even if you have a fleet doctrine with 200 ships carrying 2 of the modules, you can wipe out 400 missiles per salvo. Say the salvo is 5 seconds, if the enemy is firing a ton of HMLs at you, you can only neuter the dps of about 80 drakes with those 200 ships.

Also, I really like the idea of the minimum arming range for guided missiles.. not for unguided missiles.. which gives unguided missiles another advantage.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#250 - 2012-09-26 10:01:53 UTC
Luwc wrote:
BC's were perfectly balanced , ppl are just to ******** to fly **** properly and counter other fleet doctrines

******* pointless "balancing" lol :D



So the complete ubiquity of drakes, and hurricanes is just down to players being too **** to counter them is it? The complete death of t1 battleships and HACs in PVP is just an artefact of this?
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#251 - 2012-09-26 10:05:40 UTC
Senarian Tyme wrote:
Instead of blindly nerfing heavy missiles, the drake or other simple but mindless nerf approaches, maybe its time to realize that a more productive countermeasure would be to put in counter agents to these factors.

CCP already put in the defender missiles (and even upgraded them a bit this last year). but isntead of such a silly defense system which requires the same launchers to defend against it, and then ONLY for the ships carrying them..... why not put in a true fleet support ship with a dedicated role to counter such threats. A T2 gallente ship could be introduced which provides point defense for fleet assets within a certain range, against incoming missiles launched at further distances. i.e. if a heavy missile has to travel more than 50km, it can be picked off by the fleet defense ship. This would force heavy missile boats to a closer range, at which point HAMs would start to become a viable substitute.

Other defense ships could also be introduced to counter other weapons types then too down the road, and even slipped into a few of the PVE events to spice things up at times.

The other option I could see would be putting a minimum arming range onto the heavy missiles, say 10KM which could be pushed down with skill to about 5km.

There are better solutions which would grow the game available than simply nerfing things into oblivion, please realize that role based focused is not the same as everybody is exactly the same and things just look different. Please dont try to dumb down EVE in a poor attempt to broaden your market.


No, I'm sorry but the statistics AND actual in game evidence both show that HMLs are out of line both in range and in damage. Having to introduce new ships just to balance this is ludicrous.

What exactly is the problem with nerfing HMLs? Tengus and Drakes take a hit but are still decent in many circumstances, HAMs become competative, Caracals are still viable if not better, and Cerbs and Nighthawks still need a boost, as they currently do. Whats the downside? People who love the OP Tengu and Drake get angry? So what?

Every change to missles since eve was released has generated 100s of pages of whining. People hate having their pet OP setup changed. People hate having to adapt.

Nevermind that the changes to TEs and TCs will be an ENORMOUS boost to missles in many circumstances
Kadobloc
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#252 - 2012-09-26 15:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadobloc
Let me throw this one in the pond.

The best memories i have of eve was the time when their was a complete in-balance. I'm talking about nano hacks. It was awesome that you can swing in dual it out and move out before anyone could land on you.

Now rather than keep trying to "balance" things and in one respect give everyone an even playing field - to me you make the game even more structured and formulated and well boring.

Now i'm sure there are enough of you at CCP to come up with hidden "attributes" that seriously make playing the game a bit more than just sitting at the computer deciding what to do today.

Another example was the guys who got very rich running Wormholes becuase of two negative hole attributes creating a massive buff.... ie. negative minus an negative = a plus.

I think you should concentrate on creating these hidden in-balances, i mean you call them exploits, but you know thats the most interesting part of the game. It could be in null sec these Frigates get an even bigger buff to probe strength which would allow them to take the role of "anom tackler" since running cosmics in null sec is pretty much a safe activity. Usually it takes minimum of 5 probes to locate and be able to warp to; let these ships pop one probe and get an instant warp to. Sure as hell give people the ability to go "hulk hunting" since again; mining plexes in null sec is a safe activity.

Just my thoughts the game is defo lacking atm and the flavour of month (infact for the last 18 months) has been to join a blop-tastic alliance giving the smaller outfits nothing in the way of fun.
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#253 - 2012-09-29 20:38:51 UTC
I hope we don't lose all of the old ship art. I know most of the outcry is to change all of the "ugly" ships, but believe it or not many of us actually prefer the archaic looking designs to the newer sleeker ones. Is there any possibility that there will be any option to keep the old designs? I'm getting kind of depressed seeing the old ship designs I know and love dropping like flys. Why not make Tech III versions of the old ships that carry forward the new sleeker looking future of EVE? Wouldn't that make more sense, to make updated tech to go along with the updated art?

I guess, due to the rebalancing it is kinda like updating the tech....


So can we maybe get the old designs some other way? Maybe by making sort of run-down versions that are not as strong as the re-balanced ships, but perhaps have some other dynamic advantage like maybe the ability to safely remove rigs without breaking them? Or just make them cheaper to build or buy somehow?

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.

Vendictus Prime
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#254 - 2012-10-01 15:17:42 UTC
Good article from Themittani.com Hulk rebalance that shows how well rebalancing is working for for the former mining king, the Hulk. Based on the latest comments on heavy missles and Tech 3 cruisers I guess they should start working on articles for the Drake and Tengus.
BhurakStarkiller
GPDSK
#255 - 2012-10-02 14:45:45 UTC
I didnt read all the pages, so this may have been asked before:



What will happen to the Navy version of these cruisers?



Most are pretty much unused as of now. Wont be better if they dont change in patch.
Lifelongnoob
State War Academy
Caldari State
#256 - 2012-10-02 15:39:30 UTC
will the maller get a drone bay?

it seems a bit unfair that the other 3 race's combat cruisers have a drone bay but the maller doesnt get one
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#257 - 2012-10-05 09:06:42 UTC
I want mining lasers that hurt ships. I want to drop a fleet of barges on a titan and mine the tritanium right off its hull. Oh, and maybe a rebalance of industrial ships would be nice too. Battle Badgers need some love!

Also, for that new minmatar destroyer... a snow plow attached to a brick? I know minmatar use scrap and all... but that's just pushing it. Make it look better, like the new stabber and vagabond, please <3
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#258 - 2012-10-05 09:12:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Again, having a modular industrial / mining / hauling cybertron prime transformer hull is more in the area of tech3 ships. Which isn't a bad idea, when you think about it, but not coming for a while.



Wait wait wait... are you suggesting... tech 3 industrials?
TekGnosis
Rules of Acquisition
#259 - 2012-10-05 18:44:24 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:
Salpad wrote:
When are you going to update the corresponding T2 frigates? Especially the Covert Ops frigates, so that they match the bonuses and functions of T1 versions?

I'm actually hoping this never happens. Blindly cascading through the T1 bonuses to the T2 hulls, allowing T2 hulls to keep their improved resists and fittings, and adding a role bonus on top will end with the same outcome we have now. T2 hulls will continue to be the ships of choice because they can do everything the T1 variant can do, do it better than the T1 can do, and have additional capabilities for their intended niche.

I would rather see the T2 hulls have to suffer some kind of drawback in trade for their specialization similar to how most T2 modules, while generally being more effective than the T1 version, are also generally more difficult to fit.

Since you've mentioned Cov Ops frigates let's examine them. The rebalanced Exploration Frigates are getting bonuses to scan probe strength as well as reduced cycle times for analyzers, codebreakers, and salvagers. Cascade those bonuses to the Covert Ops and add the Cov Ops additional scan probe strength and flight time bonus, plus cloaking device fitting bonus and you get ships that preform all exploration activity as well as their T1 counterparts, can scan down those sites faster then their T1 counterparts, and can warp to those sites while cloaked. Given those advantages why would anyone chose the T1 hull over the T2, except for lack of in game skills?

If the purpose of T1 rebalancing is to make T1 ships a viable option to T2 ships, then T2 ships will need some kind of penalty for their specialization that make T1 ships seem attractive. If the rebalancing is just to make T1 ships suck less until you have the skills to fly T2 it will certainly do that, but very little else will change.


Yes, experienced players who don't care that T2 is 50x as expensive get the shiny toys. Spending as much on a fitted Anathema as a BC hull should get you some advantages over the same function for 1m isk fitted.

Likewise, if you drop 150m on a HAC you should get some awesome win in that package. After fit its 200m anyway, and that's at least -10- fit t1 cruisers.

Before this balancing of T1 cruisers, I was of the opinion T2 hulls in general are simply overpriced by a wide margin of 2x or so. Now, if T1 becomes 'good' then its just a hard look at how bad you want to win. Is 1.5x performance worth 50x price?

In a way, this could encourage more random PVP as you will have the option of roaming about in something cheap enough to undock in; where before there wasn't a cheaper alternative that actually had a chance of success.

I can afford, and own a few HAC. I'll be roaming around in viable T1 ships with my buddies for teh lulz about 10x as often post December, because that's 10x as many roams for my money. As of *now* getting in a few T1 cruisers and heading down the tama pipe will just get you ganked by some random BC.
Ally Dale Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2012-10-08 16:50:47 UTC
I'd think it would be cool if in the future there was a option to reset attributes with plex or whatnot when the remaps run out. Retribution is def on my look forward list for this winter. Big smile