These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

T3 nerf (xpost from ships and fittings)
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Spr09
Gold Trimmed Stars
#61 - 2012-09-16 19:39:17 UTC
Tengu does need more than the cookie cutter fits it has now.
Loki needs to get it's **** figured out, I'm looking at you hardpoint configuration.
Proteus needs some better drone subsystems
Legion IMO is the only balanced t3. It can fill a number of roles without it being able to do all of them, and it's definitely a step up from tech 2. Just give it one or two extra low slots please.
Wolvun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-09-17 02:03:55 UTC
Spr09 wrote:
Tengu does need more than the cookie cutter fits it has now.
Loki needs to get it's **** figured out, I'm looking at you hardpoint configuration.
Proteus needs some better drone subsystems
Legion IMO is the only balanced t3. It can fill a number of roles without it being able to do all of them, and it's definitely a step up from tech 2. Just give it one or two extra low slots please.


Really?

I find legion to be the most gimped of them all.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#63 - 2012-09-17 02:14:01 UTC
Wolvun wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
Tengu does need more than the cookie cutter fits it has now.
Loki needs to get it's **** figured out, I'm looking at you hardpoint configuration.
Proteus needs some better drone subsystems
Legion IMO is the only balanced t3. It can fill a number of roles without it being able to do all of them, and it's definitely a step up from tech 2. Just give it one or two extra low slots please.


Really?

I find legion to be the most gimped of them all.


Agreed. Id sacrifice small cute furry things to whatever pagan god it took for some buffs to my Legion. ;P

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Lord Regent
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-09-17 02:46:55 UTC
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
This whine about T3 obsolete T2 Ships is simply groundless. One only needs to look at the ships to see it is so.

Have you ever seen a

T3 Hictor or a T3 Logistic?

Hictor option does not exist and the Logistic is mostly bad that its not worth using(except for maybe pve - which is not a balance factor for pvp)

Do T3 recons obsolete T2 recon ships? Look at the bonuses and you can clearly see that it does not.

T2 recon ships have superior ewar capability over T3. e.g. Falcon vs Tengu jams, Pilgrim vs Legion Neut, Rapier vs Loki Web, and Arazu vs Proteus scram.

T2 field command ships typical are superior to T3 cruiser in firepower. (Except the Nighthawk which is a lulzy and problematic ship.) The Astarte, Absolution, and Sleipnir kicks T3 ass the dps department.

T2 HACs typically have better mobility, smaller sig radius, and longer range capabilities than T3. HAC's are mobile, tanky RR gang cruisers with good firepower.

I believe the main argument and complaint is that T3 beat HAC's overall, but if you really think about it, most HAC's see little use even without T3 ships around.

The Fact is that most HAC's are pretty awful. The Eagle out of all is the worst ship and the Cerberus is a joke. The sacrilege is a slow armor ships with short range missiles. The ishtar is a decent drone boat, but suffers from fitting issues and drones are a bit lame. The deimos is well diemost. The Muninn is pointless with the Tornado and Hurricane around.

Out of all 8 HAC's, 2 HAC's see regular use. The zealot and the vagabond, the only decent and worthy of the bunch. The Vagabond is the bread and butter nano ship. The Zealot is the ARMOR HAC.

I ask of CCP to be reasonable and not listen to rabid blabbering people who say things without any real backup.


^ this dude knows what he's talking about.

+1

powers-sa: flaming deadtear is like lighting your own farts powers-sa: eventually you are going to singe your ass
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-09-17 07:47:54 UTC
Wolvun wrote:
Really?

I find legion to be the most gimped of them all.

Just for the sake of arguing, this is not neccessarily a contradiction. Maybe he thinks that Legion is fine while other T3s could use some attention to unused subsystems and amybe nerf to others.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#66 - 2012-09-17 08:23:53 UTC
I think the whole premise that w-space dwellers are less histrionic than nullbears and others is laughable.

Looking at what is happening from the bottom-up rebalancing that is going on, and having stepped out of the rabbit hole to factional warfare;

The new Slasher/Condor/Atrons you get tooling about FW are viable interceptors; in fact they are so much more cost-effective than ceptors people are crying. A pack of twin MASB AB Merlins, I can guarantee, would give anything a serious headache, and I can guarantee none of you have seen a propely OP Legion-Loki boosted Incursus at work.

Cruiser rebalance will obviously not afect W-space much, but as with the frigates, you will see the shunned bastard children come into their own. I remind you that soon we will have viable T1 logi cruisers, and T1 logi frigates. If you think this is immaterial, then you probably don't see the implications for C1's, or indeed POS bashing. Or for hordes of noobs suddenly finding a viable niche in W-space beyond being a proby scout (when not an alt) or just an income source for the elite.

The Ancillary Shield Booster has changed Factional Warfare fits and tactics, and I would argue for the worst. The twin XLASB fit Cyclone, in FW, is tackled only on sufferance and under duress if you are solo, because you inevitably end up taking forever to kill it and get blobbed. But that ship at least has an active tank bonus. Pity the Brutix is now so crap.

The MASB Thrasher is absolutely insane when parked on warp-in - it was Thrashers Online before the ASB's, but now you can't bust an ASB Thrasher safely with less than 4 frigates. That is wrong because the Thrasher is not beant to be a stupidly overtanked pain in the butt.

In essence: there's changes already on the board which you should be getting familiar with, because it won't be long before buffed T1 hulls begin demanding your respect.

What does this mean for the T3's?

Well, for a start when you get out of your own holes, and come to FW, you realise how stupid and unbalanced the OGB T3 is. MASB Merlins repping to full. Dual rep AB Incursus tanking 5 cruisers. 7km/s Vigils. It is blatantly crap and due for a serious nerf because it is essentially required to have an OGB T3 to "solo" these days.

As for the AHAC doctrine, as Lilu Liu pointed out, the webbing is all done by web lokis. There are few T3's you don't see sporting 85K EHP buffers, and very few HACs (you could pimp a sac to this level if you were nuts). Its all SFI's, the odd NOmen, Zealots, and maybe a Diemost. T3 balance has to address this imbalance with the brawler HACs.

As for nano doctrine, well you don't see it at work much in wormholes aside from the 100Mn Tengus kicking about or the odd Loki with Loki boosts stacked on top. It's just not viable for an environment where leaving your only exit and flying away is stupid. However, outside the hole, the Cynabal, Tengu and Loki reign supreme for the nano doctrine, and the Lach and Huginn compete favorably for long-point and webs, with canes and vagas also doing OK.

The only place T3 cruisers don't reign supreme is the tier 3 sniper gangs, where Lach/Huginn/Scimi nano nado or naga gangs are the king of alphafleet, and Oracles make good DPS boats.

This suggests to me that the key point addressing a T3 "nerf" or rebalance is akin to the anti-blap move on Titans. Assume that most of the w-space dwellers are rich enough to pimp the nadgers off their T3's and go from there as a way of balaning the hulls. Add versatility to the ships where it is lacking; ie; a viable HAM Loki, rail Tengu and rail Proteus. Moderate the Tengu's gank+tank supremacy, and address some of the ultra-insane buffers getting about for the armour T3's. Maybe wind back the Proteus' blaster DPS a smidge if it sticks out after the Tengu is done. And of course, nerf the bejeesus out of the command subs.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-09-17 10:13:13 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
rebalancing is one thing. nerfing is another.


And they come together like love and marriage.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-09-17 16:36:31 UTC
Lets go ahead and address some of your idiocy point by point.

Trinkets friend wrote:

The new Slasher/Condor/Atrons you get tooling about FW are viable interceptors; in fact they are so much more cost-effective than ceptors people are crying. A pack of twin MASB AB Merlins, I can guarantee, would give anything a serious headache, and I can guarantee none of you have seen a propely OP Legion-Loki boosted Incursus at work.

And the only difference that nerfing T3's will do is that people will switch to command ships. The only way to resolve this is with ongrid only boosting, which is also the wrong move IMO. And even if the command ships/T3's were switched in the amount of bonus they provide, many people would still stick with the T3's because it is easier to keep them safe while boosting. Yes, command ships should recieve more bonus than T3's, but the only way to "solve" this issue for you is addressing boosting altogether, and T3's aren't the problem with this (aside from being better than command ships)

Quote:

Cruiser rebalance will obviously not afect W-space much, but as with the frigates, you will see the shunned bastard children come into their own. I remind you that soon we will have viable T1 logi cruisers, and T1 logi frigates. If you think this is immaterial, then you probably don't see the implications for C1's, or indeed POS bashing. Or for hordes of noobs suddenly finding a viable niche in W-space beyond being a proby scout (when not an alt) or just an income source for the elite.

and this is a problem how exactly? It would be nice to see these "shunned bastard children" actually have a viable place in WH's, instead of WH's being T2 cruisers, t1 BC's and up only.

Quote:

The Ancillary Shield Booster has changed Factional Warfare fits and tactics, and I would argue for the worst. The twin XLASB fit Cyclone, in FW, is tackled only on sufferance and under duress if you are solo, because you inevitably end up taking forever to kill it and get blobbed. But that ship at least has an active tank bonus. Pity the Brutix is now so crap.

The MASB Thrasher is absolutely insane when parked on warp-in - it was Thrashers Online before the ASB's, but now you can't bust an ASB Thrasher safely with less than 4 frigates. That is wrong because the Thrasher is not beant to be a stupidly overtanked pain in the butt.

Aww... are you buthurt that the game is changing? All this is a "problem" with the ASB, if you want to consider that a problem. What it is actually doing, if you can see around your buthurtedness is making solo semi-viable again. Now if only something similar was done for armor, so that way solo armor might actually be viable again. Now, why don't we see much ASB's in WH space? cause cap boosters are a PITA logistically.

Quote:

In essence: there's changes already on the board which you should be getting familiar with, because it won't be long before buffed T1 hulls begin demanding your respect.

What does this mean for the T3's?

Well, for a start when you get out of your own holes, and come to FW, you realise how stupid and unbalanced the OGB T3 is. MASB Merlins repping to full. Dual rep AB Incursus tanking 5 cruisers. 7km/s Vigils. It is blatantly crap and due for a serious nerf because it is essentially required to have an OGB T3 to "solo" these days.

Why do you assume that WH's have to come to that cesspit that is FW? You know, there are a great many other things out there than FW, and outside of the limitations of FW plexes, pretty much all of your complaints can be dealt with. So basically you are complaining again about OGB, which again, isn't a problem of T3's, its a problem of OGB. "adjusting" T3's will not solve this problem.

Quote:

As for the AHAC doctrine, as Lilu Liu pointed out, the webbing is all done by web lokis. There are few T3's you don't see sporting 85K EHP buffers, and very few HACs (you could pimp a sac to this level if you were nuts). Its all SFI's, the odd NOmen, Zealots, and maybe a Diemost. T3 balance has to address this imbalance with the brawler HACs.

And again, this is not a problem of T3's. Its a problem of HAC's not being touched since they nerfed nano... what... 3 years ago was it? And the reason why all webbing is done by web lokis is that in an AHAC gang, for long range webbing you have the option of the loki, the rapier, or the huggin. And of those only the loki can actually armor tank. If you nano the fleet, or if you run shields, you bring the rapier or huggin - no problem here, each ship has its role. And notice how the legion isn't used often in AHAC gangs - it is a zealot with more buffer and more speed, but it isn't used because the Zealot is one of the few viable HAC's. This is not a problem with T3's, its a problem with HAC's.

continued in the next post...
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-09-17 16:51:00 UTC
Quote:

As for nano doctrine, well you don't see it at work much in wormholes aside from the 100Mn Tengus kicking about or the odd Loki with Loki boosts stacked on top. It's just not viable for an environment where leaving your only exit and flying away is stupid. However, outside the hole, the Cynabal, Tengu and Loki reign supreme for the nano doctrine, and the Lach and Huginn compete favorably for long-point and webs, with canes and vagas also doing OK.

And of those, you mentioned 2 T3's (and while I agree that the tengu is viable for nano, I'd like to see the loki that outperforms a vaga/cynabel for this). The tengu with 100MN afterburner is an interesting fit, but it is surprisingly squishy. I would however like to note that people have been complaining about nano since eve got enough population to actually have fleets of more than 5 people to be common. The only difference now is that boosts have become common, so once again your complaint isn't actually about T3's here, it is about OGB. Whine whine whine. What? Do you want to do to boosting what they did to learning skills and delete them all? It appears that that is the only thing that will actually satisfy you.

Quote:

This suggests to me that the key point addressing a T3 "nerf" or rebalance is akin to the anti-blap move on Titans. Assume that most of the w-space dwellers are rich enough to pimp the nadgers off their T3's and go from there as a way of balaning the hulls. Add versatility to the ships where it is lacking; ie; a viable HAM Loki, rail Tengu and rail Proteus. Moderate the Tengu's gank+tank supremacy, and address some of the ultra-insane buffers getting about for the armour T3's. Maybe wind back the Proteus' blaster DPS a smidge if it sticks out after the Tengu is done. And of course, nerf the bejeesus out of the command subs.

T3's, are not blap titans. There is not one single T3 that can actually oneshot something other than an untanked frigate. And making a HAM loki viable, (hell, a HAM legion too while we're at it), a rail tengu and a rail proteus viable (which is more a problem of medium hybrid turrets than either of these ships) are all good things.

The tengu's gank+tank supremacy is a product of heavy missiles (which is also the problem with the drake), and heavy missiles need to be looked at, while its tank is only good because it uses shields, and local armor tank is currently rather lacking, which is a completely seperate issue needing to get addressed. As for the "ultra-insane buffers" for the armor T3's, I'm failing to see a problem with them. Yeah, they can get as much buffer as a battleship (in the proteus' case, more), but they have dismal DPS when fit like this compared to those selfsame battleships. And aside from the tengu/raven comparison, none of the T3's really compete with battleship DPS, and while they can compare favorably with command ships, that again is the tengu/nighthawk (and the nighthawk needs to be looked at), the astarte which really needs a look at, and the only advantage of the legion over the absolution is the range and speed - abso is better at tank and gank assuming it can get in range.

So the only actual point you have in all of your ranting is that you hate OGB. Well, that certainly would have reduced the amount of whining we had to read if you just settled with saying that.

-Arazel
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#70 - 2012-09-17 17:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Prot can easily exceed 250K EHP and have battleship levels of damage as well. Loki isn't far behind if your a bit creative. Legion is in the ballpark tho you do have to compromise between tank or dps a bit more there. That said tho the Loki isn't designed for that role and neither really is Legion - the Prot is the one that fits the role.

EDIT: Oh and command subs are fine, OGB is another story really anyhow but again its not the T3 thats the problem here, its fixing command ships that needs to be done - and IMO they need something extra to give them that role specialisation i.e. maybe an inherent boost to a certain attribute per level on top of the ganglink capabilities - for instance damaation could get an on-grid 3% per level inherent bonus to all fleet ships capacitor regen to help with the cap heavy turrets and neuting capabilities of amarr ships.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#71 - 2012-09-17 17:53:49 UTC
if by easily you mean with ganglinks and slaves, then sure.

I'm with Arazel here, fixing HACs will help a lot, removing (or heavily tweaking) OFB will make T3s fit in so much better.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#72 - 2012-09-17 18:08:53 UTC
Well ok you need to throw a bit of ISK at it :P - but not an inordinate amount considering the price of T3s IMO - T2 fit w/ T1 tri-marks is still around 140K EHP which is well into battleship territory and still putting out in the region of 1000 dps.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-09-17 19:04:06 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Prot can easily exceed 250K EHP and have battleship levels of damage as well. Loki isn't far behind if your a bit creative. Legion is in the ballpark tho you do have to compromise between tank or dps a bit more there. That said tho the Loki isn't designed for that role and neither really is Legion - the Prot is the one that fits the role.

EDIT: Oh and command subs are fine, OGB is another story really anyhow but again its not the T3 thats the problem here, its fixing command ships that needs to be done - and IMO they need something extra to give them that role specialisation i.e. maybe an inherent boost to a certain attribute per level on top of the ganglink capabilities - for instance damaation could get an on-grid 3% per level inherent bonus to all fleet ships capacitor regen to help with the cap heavy turrets and neuting capabilities of amarr ships.


For a proteus to hit 250k EHP before slaves/t2 trimarks/links, you have to have the following fit:

[Proteus, Brick]
Imperial Navy Energized EM Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Explosive Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Explosive Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Hammerhead II x5

This fit has 254k EHP, and does 606dps. This ship can go 1k m/s without links, has a scram range of 13.5km, and a web range of 10k (and is "cap stable", though that wasn't a goal of the fit). Gun dps is 447 at 2.3+2.8km. Also note, this fit doesn't hit 250k EHP without the IN hardeners. By using active hardeners (which it can't run for long) you can hit 260k EHP with a pure T2 fit.

Now, this is admittedly beyond the EHP that you can get with a megathron. With the following fit, you get 179k EHP, but the mega does 663 gun dps with void loaded, has a speed of 872m/s, a range of 6.8+6.3 w/ void loaded, has a cap booster and a heavy neut. That is even before adding in the drones, which you can use for whatever setup floats your boat the most, but already this full tank megathron is doing more dps than the proteus, while costing around half as much. Note, for a battleship to hit the same EHP as that proteus, it has to either have a resist bonus, or have the extra HP of a faction BS.

[Megathron, Brick]
Coreli C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Explosive Membrane
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

So we can see that though yes, the proteus can certaintly get great EHP (best subcap in the game), to get that EHP it has to sacrifice its ability to hit the same DPS numbers as a super-tanked battleship. This is of course ignoring the fact that the megathron can hit 1300dps with near 100k EHP fit, while a proteus with near 100k EHP can barely break 1000 (at less than half the range). Now, is the proteus still an impressive ship? Yes. Does it obsolete battleships. Nope. And please remember that you can get the better performance of the battleship at half the price (or less) of the T3. The reason to use the T2 is the extra mobility and the better resists, which allow it to survive longer in a gang with logi support. The battleship still maintains the ability to fit heavy neuts, and hit at much longer ranges.

All this being stated... the proteus is clearly doing better here than the astarte is, and the astarte is seriously in need of a makeover. The last time I saw someone flying an astarte in PvP was... hmm... damn, that was before the nano-nerf... Maybe elsewhere they're used more often, but I certainly haven't seen it.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-09-17 19:10:33 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Well ok you need to throw a bit of ISK at it.


And this right here makes the point. You have to throw a bit of isk at T3's. And everyone is comparing T3's with faction fits, stating that these are reasonable fits, and then comparing them to T2 fit battlecruisers/HAC's/battleships.

Of course you're going to get better results when you pimp the heck out of a ship (assuming you know what you're trying to achieve with the pimping). But comparing a pimped T3 to an unpimped T2 or T1 is pure bullshit, and not a cause to nerf T3's. Thats like saying we need to nerf the vindicator because it has too much tank when everyone is using faction armor mods, and it has more tank than a t1 mega.

-Arazel
Utsen Dari
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-09-17 21:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Utsen Dari
I hope the POS change comes before the T3 change. Because *arrrrgh* @ having to drive all the broken T3s out to k-space to re-tool their fits.


EDIT @ offgrid boosting debate: agreed that this phenomenon is lame, in that it demands alt gameplay. Boost ship is a wholly uninteresting role for a non alt character. IMO the boost ship should have to be on grid to give boosts. A proper fleet command ship can pull that off with tank and multiple links but a T3 cannot. T3 with one link fighting alongside the gang makes sense to me; T3 with six links chillin in a POS does not.