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T3 nerf (xpost from ships and fittings)
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Derath Ellecon

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,402

#41 - 2012-09-11 15:16:10 UTC

Casirio wrote:

Derath Ellecon wrote:

TLDR: As long as I have to keep retraining skills over and over for the priviledge of dying in a T3, I don't have a problem with them being a little OP.

Tengu could use a nerf but other t3s not so much.. High cost plus SP loss for a reason.

Honestly I don't even think the Tengu needs that much of a "nerf" as some balance. But more important is the Caldari lineup needs to be fixed.

Yes the damage projection of a Tengu is huge. But that's not limited to the Tengu. The Cerb can max its range at 186KM. So adjust the cerb to a more useful range (closer to a Tengu) and adjust its tank and gank accordingly. Now you have a viable alternative to the Tengu. Maybe not as tough, but alot cheaper and no SP loss.

Doddy

Excidium.

Likes received: 966

#42 - 2012-09-12 11:58:36 UTC | Edited by: Doddy

Wabrith Habalu wrote:

Doddy wrote:

Mister Tuggles wrote:

I really don't know what he is talking about with t1 BC's being underused.... Drake, cane, harby, myrm are all ridiculously good ships, and are probably some of the most used ships in the game.

t.

He talks about tier 1 bcs being underpowered compared to tier 2.

You list all the tier 2 bcs as "ridiculously good" ships to prove him wrong.

You are an idiot.

Drake, cane, harby, myrm..... Those are all t1 ships there brochacho.

You don't understand "tier" at all do you "brochacho"

223
Marcus Harikari Likes received: 223	#43 - 2012-09-12 13:08:20 UTC Papiranti robcki wrote: Heavy Missiles on the other hand need to be nerfed hard... no

The Scope 475
Irya Boone The Scope Likes received: 475	#44 - 2012-09-12 16:34:48 UTC Marcus Harikari wrote: Papiranti robcki wrote: Heavy Missiles on the other hand need to be nerfed hard... no yes CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !! you shall all bow and pray BoB

Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 1,626
Kitty Bear Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State Likes received: 1,626	#45 - 2012-09-12 22:35:48 UTC Irya Boone wrote: Marcus Harikari wrote: Papiranti robcki wrote: Heavy Missiles on the other hand need to be nerfed hard... no yes only when someone can smartbomb your AM/Iron rounds onroute to target.

Mr Floydy

Questionable Ethics.

Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork

Likes received: 362

#46 - 2012-09-13 11:56:36 UTC | Edited by: Mr Floydy

Some of the Tengu subs need a nerf. Mainly the missile sub, the fact it can spew out dps to match the Loki/legion short range weapon systems at 110km is plain ********. But arguably this is an issue with HML themselves.

If you compare the missile sub on the Legion to that of the Tengu. You are limited to only HAM, you only get 2 bonuses, and they're lower. Nice balancing there...

Looking at other combinations of Tengu though, cloaky's are a real tough compromise to fit well, the ecm is massively weaker than the Falcon and the hybrid sub is pointless.

For the Legion, It would be nice to tweak the laser and missile subs a bit, either a bit more dps or some drones. The drone sub is a waste of time and the cloaky sub needs a damage bonus instead of cap and a better subsytem layout.

Off of the top of my head I can't think of any specific issues with the Prot/Loki sub combinations. Pretty sure there a few entirely pointless subsystems there.

If the subs get some tweaking, we can have 4 T3 ships that are well balanced with each other and all capable of being flexible like CCP aim for. The issue is then how good they are versus other ships.

Personally I think they are pretty well placed against Recons, Logistics and field Command ships bar the Nighthawk. The main issue beside the obvious ganglink/fleet boost issue is HACs. Except for the Zealot they're all a bit rubbish, off of the top of my head I can't think of any that I would use over a tier 2 or 3 Battlecruiser.

Kitty Bear wrote:

only when someone can smartbomb your AM/Iron rounds onroute to target.

So you think HML are fine because one very selective fit of lots of smartbombs makes you useless.
You've heard of tracking disruptors right? Not that any T3 gunship is really going to be doing anything beyond tickling you at 110km anyway...

Antagonistic Tendencies 1,155
Rroff Antagonistic Tendencies Likes received: 1,155	#47 - 2012-09-13 14:10:33 UTC I'm not really a fan of nerfing the tengu's missile abilities if for no other reason that it would make them less attractive for PVE and less shiny tengus sitting in sites to gank. I think it would be better to slightly buff the other T3 ships where appropriate.

Mea Culpa. Shadow Cartel 4,407
Roime Mea Culpa. Shadow Cartel Likes received: 4,407	#48 - 2012-09-13 14:42:37 UTC You mean like 120km optimal and infinite tracking with Null, plus selectable damage type? Would work I guess .


Rroff Antagonistic Tendencies Likes received: 1,155	#49 - 2012-09-13 15:10:52 UTC 1 Roime wrote: You mean like 120km optimal and infinite tracking with Null, plus selectable damage type? Would work I guess Just tweaking spike so it doesn't have as much of a dps drop on medium weapons and giving the dissonic encoding sub-system a bit of a boost to railgun range and damage on the prot would go a long way to balancing that.

Helen Nearning

Doomheim

Likes received: 4

#50 - 2012-09-13 19:29:11 UTC

Roime wrote:

You mean like 120km optimal and infinite tracking with Null, plus selectable damage type?

Would work I guess

Or maybe they can add explosion velocity and explosion radius... oh wait. I mean who cries about 120k range in wh's? What are you doing wrong that you are scrammed with no means to break tackle and taking damage from a tengu(s) at 100k+?

Outside of pulsars, is it just me or do most of the big players in wh space use armor? the prot can do upwards of 1k dps... the loki seems ok and the legion seems gimpy. Sure the other t3's are more short range, but unless you are a knucklehead and get caught in a site, most fights will be at or close to zero on a wh?

Pretty sure the tengu subs that need to be looked at the most are cap regen and the rr.. .as the tengu is the only ship you should be flying in the upper end sites? That seems a bit op.

Yeah, sure there are tengu blobs, but generally any 50+ gang will pwn in wh space regardless of ship type.

Far more out of whack are the dreads... The moros does 150% more dmg than the rest and the phoenix is as broken than any other ship in the game, with the nag merely 50% gimp. (Due to explosion velocity and explosion radius aka "infinite tracking".... lol).

Tau Cabalander

Retirement Retreat

Working Stiffs

Likes received: 6,913

#51 - 2012-09-13 20:54:53 UTC | Edited by: Tau Cabalander

Hmm.

When I read nerf to T3 I figured it was going to be about the Warfare subsystem, as CCP has mentioned it more than once.

I think CCP proposed a reduction to the link bonus, plus a smaller secondary link bonus, which I think is a fantastic idea. T3 are supposed to be versatile, and Fleet Command ships should rule the roost as a dedicated fleet boosters (though most of them need some tank buffing).

As for nerfing T3 DPS, range, or tank, I personally don't think that should be done, as all the T3 should be Sleeper-capable. Example: one really can't reduce Tengu range or tank, and still have it capable of surviving a C5 or C6.

So I'm all for a massive buff to tank, DPS, and range for the Legion, Proteus, and Loki.

Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 178
Raptors Mole Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State Likes received: 178	#52 - 2012-09-13 23:28:24 UTC "Some of the Tengu subs need a nerf. Mainly the missile sub, the fact it can spew out dps to match the Loki/legion short range weapon systems at 110km is plain ********". Would be if it was true.

Rroff

Antagonistic Tendencies

Likes received: 1,155

#53 - 2012-09-13 23:49:09 UTC | Edited by: Rroff

Tau Cabalander wrote:

Instead of nerfing boosting T3s IMO they should do something like giving the command ships a bonus to specific boosting i.e. the Eos could have a bonus to the sensor strength attribute on the sensor integrity link while keeping the 3% racial bonus, Claymore gets a specific bonus to the sig reduction link and so on.

Obviously they need to make the command ships more suited to on grid use.

Sleiipniir 65
Malken Sleiipniir Likes received: 65	#54 - 2012-09-14 06:56:57 UTC considering that the T3's cost upwards of 5-7BS in cost they are atleast fine. /me thinks ytterbaum got his gasser nuked by a cloaky T3 gang.... ☻/ /▌ / \

Roime

Mea Culpa.

Shadow Cartel

Likes received: 4,407

#55 - 2012-09-14 09:19:42 UTC

Helen Nearning wrote:

Roime wrote:

You mean like 120km optimal and infinite tracking with Null, plus selectable damage type?

Would work I guess

Dear Helen,

wormhole space is indeed an area where the mobility and range of Tengu don't make it OP (except in PVE), and high buffer brawlers work very well. Also, because of :Guardian:. However, T3s are not locked insinde w-space, and out there the meta is different. favouring ranged damage projection and mobility over brawling. Generally speaking.

Tengu can reach formidable levels of dps, and has the advantage of being able to hit resist holes.

I still claim that the only thing that makes Tengu OP besides HMLs (which make the Drake popular as well) is it's ability to fit 100MN AB without seriously gimping anything else. MWD Tengu with missiles brought back in line would be just like other mortals.

Ravage Prime

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 7

#56 - 2012-09-14 12:05:41 UTC

Tengu is a t3 like it should be, except 2 things:

Fuel Catalyst - Should have -5% cap use on propulsion modules instead of 5% Speed
Accelerated Ejection Bay - No Velocity bonus to missiles

T3 subsystems generally need some little stat change, not only the tengu

Roime wrote:

Helen Nearning wrote:

Roime wrote:

You mean like 120km optimal and infinite tracking with Null, plus selectable damage type?

Would work I guess

The Ascended Academy 683
Acac Sunflyier The Ascended Academy Likes received: 683	#57 - 2012-09-14 12:34:52 UTC I think he's also referring to off grid boosting t3s. After all, a command ship takes longer to get into but doesn't boost as much as a t3. He also is probably referring to the ease of putting 100mn after burners on t3s and still giving them like 60kehp.

Giorgos Rbs

Lead Head Inc

Likes received: 33

#58 - 2012-09-14 18:01:54 UTC

Pink Marshmellow wrote:

This whine about T3 obsolete T2 Ships is simply groundless. One only needs to look at the ships to see it is so.

Have you ever seen a

T3 Hictor or a T3 Logistic?

Hictor option does not exist and the Logistic is mostly bad that its not worth using(except for maybe pve - which is not a balance factor for pvp)

Do T3 recons obsolete T2 recon ships? Look at the bonuses and you can clearly see that it does not.

T2 recon ships have superior ewar capability over T3. e.g. Falcon vs Tengu jams, Pilgrim vs Legion Neut, Rapier vs Loki Web, and Arazu vs Proteus scram.

T2 field command ships typical are superior to T3 cruiser in firepower. (Except the Nighthawk which is a lulzy and problematic ship.) The Astarte, Absolution, and Sleipnir kicks T3 ass the dps department.

T2 HACs typically have better mobility, smaller sig radius, and longer range capabilities than T3. HAC's are mobile, tanky RR gang cruisers with good firepower.

I believe the main argument and complaint is that T3 beat HAC's overall, but if you really think about it, most HAC's see little use even without T3 ships around.

The Fact is that most HAC's are pretty awful. The Eagle out of all is the worst ship and the Cerberus is a joke. The sacrilege is a slow armor ships with short range missiles. The ishtar is a decent drone boat, but suffers from fitting issues and drones are a bit lame. The deimos is well diemost. The Muninn is pointless with the Tornado and Hurricane around.

Out of all 8 HAC's, 2 HAC's see regular use. The zealot and the vagabond, the only decent and worthy of the bunch. The Vagabond is the bread and butter nano ship. The Zealot is the ARMOR HAC.

I ask of CCP to be reasonable and not listen to rabid blabbering people who say things without any real backup.

^ ty

Ryba. White Squall. 57
Yabbiy Ryba. White Squall. Likes received: 57	#59 - 2012-09-14 21:14:43 UTC 3 I strongly object to nerfing T3's

Minmatar Citizen 76959458561

Doomheim

Likes received: 21

#60 - 2012-09-15 23:46:58 UTC | Edited by: Minmatar Citizen 76959458561

I dont like the idea of nurfing t3 ships

look at what goes into t3 production
you need to use/live in wh space with all asociated risks
set up pos for reacting gas reverse engerniring and the skills that go with it
farm sleepers
mine gas
very expencive investment will pay off but expencive to start

skills
All the skills just to get into a t3
skill loss only applys to t3 ships

price
for a tidy t3 your looking at a bill isk a bill isk for cruser class ship

imho t3 should be the way they are a few tweeks to subs maybe but on most part t3 is how youd expect them to be

now hacs and teir 1 bc's could use alot love and maybe change in direction from they current rolls

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Wormholes

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Excidium.

The Scope

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Questionable Ethics.

Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork

Antagonistic Tendencies

Mea Culpa.

Shadow Cartel

Doomheim

Retirement Retreat

Working Stiffs

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Sleiipniir

Viziam

Amarr Empire

The Ascended Academy

Lead Head Inc

Ryba.

White Squall.

Doomheim