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AFK Mining Exploit?

Author
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
#61 - 2012-09-06 14:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Toroup
James 315 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks.

And if they don't, the rest of us will. Smile



OOOHHHHHH Scary!!!!!

Come find me. Make it your own personal Eve mission. Come hunt down old Toroup. Find me if you can among the shining fields of ice, and there you find your icy grave.

In all seriousness, Ice mining is a horrible isk/hour proposition. People who AFK it for the minimal isk that it provides should just be look at as NPC vendors. It's basically 8:1 right now - it takes about 8 hours of ice mining to equal 1 hour of level 4 missioning.

As far as fixing mining, they should incorporate a mechanic like having to align the beams or something to max yield. As a the mining beams run, they get out of alignment and there could be a dial that you have to adjust to realign them. Aligned beams create 100% yield, where misaligned beams degrade yield down to 0% as they progress. In doing this, people could still AFK if they wanted to but their yield would be affected. The best yield would be the people who are ATK and keep the beams aligned (maybe it's an alignment adjustment randomly from 30 secs to 5 mins).'

Additionally, adding something like PI scanning would work well. Get rid of the high yield rocks and just have high yield zones on a rock. So the overall process could be:

Warp to a field lock a rock
Scan the rock
Target the high yield areas of the rock
Align the beams
Mine
Repeat

The AFKer could just lock and mine and that could give the standard yield rocks and the overall yield would diminish as the beams become misaligned. ATK miners could actively target the high yield areas of the rocks and keep the beams aligned to maximize yield and rock type.

Ah the things I think of when I'm high.
Janet Patton
Brony Express
#62 - 2012-09-06 15:02:24 UTC
Everyone who is not a miner, should love afk miners. It drives the cost down of everything that you buy.

Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke.

Pipa Porto
#63 - 2012-09-06 16:19:51 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
So lets say you are NOT using a macro.



Something about this OP had been nagging at the back of my mind for a while, and I just figured it out.

The start of the OP is mentioning not using a bot as a hypothetical situation.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2012-09-06 16:43:33 UTC
Janet Patton wrote:
Everyone who is not a miner, should love afk miners. It drives the cost down of everything that you buy.

Which isn't necessarily a good thing, although cheapskates might believe so.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#65 - 2012-09-06 18:55:15 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
non judgement wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I never really understood why ISboxer was allowed yet macros and automation are not. But it's entirely up to CCP to decide.

That isn't of course to say we can't make consequences ourselves for users of such programs if we feel it's necessary. We just can't ban anybody. :P

Iirc, the reason they gave is that with ISBoxer, you still have to be there pressing the buttons. When you use macros, you don't have to be at the computer. They just want people to be in control and not an automated process.


Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways.

The commands are not cloned. They are sent directly to the clients.

Its not emulating commands, it is allowing the mouse/keyboard to send their commands to more than one location.
Pipa Porto
#66 - 2012-09-06 20:48:06 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways.


It's no different from using hardware/software that allows one keyboard to control multiple computers at the same time. Or the spectacular invention by the guy who made a 100% Hardware multibox setup using wooden dowels and such to chain a half dozen mice and keyboards back when CCP refused to whitelist ISBoxer.

There's no emulating the commands, it's just, in effect, a beam splitter.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#67 - 2012-09-06 20:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
baltec1 wrote:
CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks.


I think the only thing they could dotostop AFK ice mining is to drastically reduce the loooooooooooooong cycle time
to force the pilots back to the computer once every 5 minutes instead of once per hour
its just too long doing nothing to not be AFK
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-09-06 22:42:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
CCP will most likely have to do something about ice and mining in general so players don't sleep in front of their computer when they should be PLAYING



Fixed 4U Lol

brb

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#69 - 2012-09-06 23:42:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks.


isnt that what Goons are for? "Emergent gameplay" and all?

Sure, when it's actually, I don't know, playing the game.


I think I just said that... Given that "sponsoring emergent gameplay" IS playing the game

and ganking miners IS playing the game

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Jason Xado
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-09-09 16:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:


Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways.


Everything is IsBoxer is still manual. IsBoxer does 2 things.

1.) It broadcasts your mouse and key clicks to multiple clients at the same time. Which is extremely useful. However you still have to be at the keyboard and click the button. Nothing is automated.

2.) IsBoxer also has a feature (called VideoFX) that allows you to place parts of one screen onto another screen. This effectively allows you to control multiple screens without having to jump from screen to screen, which is very useful. Here is a screenshot of my mining setup to illustrate ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/4/43/Screen1.jpg ). Again, everything is manual, nothing is automated.

Obviously using IsBoxer is not the same as not using it, otherwise noone would be using it. People need to just get used to the fact the multiboxing is a vibrant part of Eve Online. For me it is what actually makes the game interesting to play as I prefer to be the master of my own empire on my own time schedule, then a peon in someone elses empire on thier time schedule. But that's just me and my humble opinion :-)
Optimo Sebiestor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-09-09 23:17:02 UTC
I find afk mining a nice niche while playing Dust 514.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#72 - 2012-09-09 23:58:45 UTC
Toroup wrote:

As far as fixing mining, they should incorporate a mechanic like having to align the beams or something to max yield. As a the mining beams run, they get out of alignment and there could be a dial that you have to adjust to realign them. Aligned beams create 100% yield, where misaligned beams degrade yield down to 0% as they progress. In doing this, people could still AFK if they wanted to but their yield would be affected. The best yield would be the people who are ATK and keep the beams aligned (maybe it's an alignment adjustment randomly from 30 secs to 5 mins).'

Additionally, adding something like PI scanning would work well. Get rid of the high yield rocks and just have high yield zones on a rock. So the overall process could be:

Warp to a field lock a rock
Scan the rock
Target the high yield areas of the rock
Align the beams
Mine
Repeat

The AFKer could just lock and mine and that could give the standard yield rocks and the overall yield would diminish as the beams become misaligned. ATK miners could actively target the high yield areas of the rocks and keep the beams aligned to maximize yield and rock type.

Ah the things I think of when I'm high.


The problem with all these ideas is that while they are really good, they kill the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time. The time involved with aligning 6, 9, 12 or more lasers would cause most people to simply take the yield hit and deal with the diminishing returns provided in your idea. The end result there is CCP devs spending a ton of time implementing something that would not be used. Time they could have spent working on other things.


Profit favors the prepared

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#73 - 2012-09-10 00:36:28 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
The problem with all these ideas is that while they are really good, they kill the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time.

No. It would kill it for people who want to mine with multiple accounts at a time AFK.

Having to spend time mining is the general idea behind, you know, trying to fix AFK mining Roll
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#74 - 2012-09-10 00:48:57 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
The problem with all these ideas is that while they are really good, they kill the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time.

No. It would kill it for people who want to mine with multiple accounts at a time AFK.

Having to spend time mining is the general idea behind, you know, trying to fix AFK mining Roll


I mine ATK with an Orca and 3 hulks. It is anything but an AFK deal if you want to maximize yield without turrets sitting with no rock to shoot at for a cycle or two.

Oh, and if some people were not aware, it's still possible to gank a hulk, so don't forget doing repetitive ATK tasks like using D-scan, local, etc.

Little games that would hinder yield in order to prevent AFK mining would probably increase AFK mining and decrease subscriptions.

Profit favors the prepared

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#75 - 2012-09-10 01:09:31 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Little games that would hinder yield in order to prevent AFK mining would probably increase AFK mining and decrease subscriptions.
Or, they could mine with less accounts and get the same yield, while playing the "little game".

Which is the real reason why CCP wont do anything about the current mining mechanics. It would cut into subscribed accounts.

Instead, they'll keep the current way for people who like minimal effort gameplay, and introduce a new mining mechanic were they can build an involving mechanic from scratch for those who actually like mining, instead of trying to change the current one which is inherently just; not fun.

No idea if ring mining will ever make it in the game tho.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-09-10 01:13:53 UTC
Why not have a popup to click and if you don't you get a little afk icon over your ship.... then let come what may Big smile

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Oxylan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-09-11 03:22:38 UTC
Try understand.

1.We are not a CCP slaves, we got rights to be afk every time when we need to be afk, even if CCP is against afk gaming style or they got specific gaming philosophy anty afk.

2. I can mining ore while im afk so long like i want, im not a robot im human, again i have right to be afk , the worse thing that may happens is overload cargo after few minyts while im afk, if i go to deep afk the worse thing that may hapens is a not active mining barge - exhumer blow up to some kamikaze because of afk reason.

3.We got familis jobs etc, again we are humans not robots.

4. Stop care or living with obsesion about bots, you pay for this game mothly fee, you have right to be afk, , enjoy game, you pay for it, bring your macinav to ice field activate strip miners and go afk, it wont earn much money...

If it bleed we can kill it.

Pipa Porto
#78 - 2012-09-11 03:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Oxylan wrote:
Try understand.

1.We are not a CCP slaves, we got rights to be afk every time when we need to be afk, even if CCP is against afk gaming style or they got specific gaming philosophy anty afk.

2. I can mining ore while im afk so long like i want, im not a robot im human, again i have right to be afk , the worse thing that may happens is overload cargo after few minyts while im afk, if i go to deep afk the worse thing that may hapens is a not active mining barge - exhumer blow up to some kamikaze because of afk reason.

3.We got familis jobs etc, again we are humans not robots.

4. Stop care or living with obsesion about bots, you pay for this game mothly fee, you have right to be afk, , enjoy game, you pay for it, bring your macinav to ice field activate strip miners and go afk, it wont earn much money...


1. Yep you certainly have the right to be AFK, but why do you feel you have the right to be AFK, Safe, and Making money all at the same time?

2. That's the problem. While Industrialized Suicide Ganking isn't possible, the worst that's likely to happen to you when you go AFK is some lost yield. People mining while AFK reduces the value of the time people spend mining while at the computer.

3. If you have a family or work commitment, I would suggest docking up and/or logging off. Most people, when family or work commitments interfere with their leisure activities, suspend their leisure activity until they've taken care of the family or work commitment. Docking up takes all of 5 seconds, and logging off is even faster.

4. Again, why do you feel you have the right to be AFK, Safe, and Make money all at the same time? It devalues the effort of other players who don't go AFK.

Finally, it seems that you're defending botting, which (if an accurate interpretation of your post) is not going to make you popular with miners or anyone, really.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-09-11 03:36:57 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks.


isnt that what Goons are for? "Emergent gameplay" and all?

Sure, when it's actually, I don't know, playing the game.


I think I just said that... Given that "sponsoring emergent gameplay" IS playing the game

and ganking miners IS playing the game

Oh, I was referring to the AFK ice miners. Not sure why I thought that's what you were talking about.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Xython
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2012-09-11 03:43:16 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
non judgement wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I never really understood why ISboxer was allowed yet macros and automation are not. But it's entirely up to CCP to decide.

That isn't of course to say we can't make consequences ourselves for users of such programs if we feel it's necessary. We just can't ban anybody. :P

Iirc, the reason they gave is that with ISBoxer, you still have to be there pressing the buttons. When you use macros, you don't have to be at the computer. They just want people to be in control and not an automated process.


Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways.

The commands are not cloned. They are sent directly to the clients.

Its not emulating commands, it is allowing the mouse/keyboard to send their commands to more than one location.


Which you can only do by emulating a mouse/keyboard via software on the other locations.

ISBoxer is botting. It's just attended botting, which is significantly more ethical than the bots that the rest of the miners use.