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Dear Jim'll CCP could you fix it for me to goto 0.0
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#101 - 2012-09-07 11:08:03 UTC
Frank Gallagher wrote:
I just thought i'd get a discussion going on how you could possibly fix 0.0 so that smaller alliances could get out and take on the bigger alliances for their sov.



There is an easy fix. Go play on the test server.

Seriously just re-reading your request should show you how clueless you are. Perhaps "CCP figure out a way so that it's not so easy for a large alliance to smash a smaller one and take their sov" would have more merit. But "let me be able to destroy someone bigger than me - just, because..." yeah right. Grow your alliance how's that? Go step on some little guy and take his sov, with the blessing of a larger alliance. Impress them. Show them you are worth having as a neighbor.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-09-07 11:10:48 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Actually, no, the weird thing is that you seem to take my post as "holy **** numbers don't mean anything", when what I said was "smaller fleets can, and often enough do, win against blobs". One reason would be that the blobs tend to be the tactic of choice for the players who are bad at eve,...


Actually I suggested you overstated your case, something you've apparently tried to address here by limiting the scope of your meaning.

Can a smaller fleet win a limited engagement? Sure. But in the big picture the current narrative of EVE is precisely the story of numbers. The advantages of the blob quite obviously outweigh the difficulties of getting the herd moving.

And did you mean to say that a 100 man fleet is what you mean by "small gang"? If so, that in itself kinda makes the point.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-09-07 11:11:24 UTC
Make more space. More nullsec and lowsec.

Make 'different' areas, like nullsec that is an island and is out of jump range of any current null or lowsec, make islands of lowsec in the middle of nullsec, make islands of nullsec in teh middle of lowsec, mix it up and get variation.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-09-07 11:26:37 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Actually, no, the weird thing is that you seem to take my post as "holy **** numbers don't mean anything", when what I said was "smaller fleets can, and often enough do, win against blobs". One reason would be that the blobs tend to be the tactic of choice for the players who are bad at eve,...


Actually I suggested you overstated your case

I did not.

Malphilos wrote:
Can a smaller fleet win a limited engagement? Sure. But in the big picture the current narrative of EVE is precisely the story of numbers. The advantages of the blob quite obviously outweigh the difficulties of getting the herd moving.

What you're looking for here is tenacity, not just numbers. We've lost whole fleets to gypsy bombing runs, but we reshipped and kept up the pressure, and won. We've gone up against ev0ke back in cloud ring, when we outnumbered them fairly heavily, and they still won because they reshipped and we couldn't/didn't.

Numbers are not an automatic win, stop trying to pretend it's an automatic win.

Malphilos wrote:
And did you mean to say that a 100 man fleet is what you mean by "small gang"? If so, that in itself kinda makes the point.

I said "100 man fleet", I did not say "small gang". I couldn't give less of a flying **** whatever some ~elite pvp~ guy thinks the definition of "small gangs" are today, even if I tried.

There's more people playing, this is leading to an inflation in numbers in fleet, more shocking news at 11.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-09-07 11:42:22 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
What you're looking for here is tenacity, not just numbers.


Not "just" numbers, but numbers. Again, that's the current narrative regardless of your "automatic win" strawman. Make friends, eh?

Lord Zim wrote:
I said "100 man fleet", I did not say "small gang". I couldn't give less of a flying **** whatever some ~elite pvp~ guy thinks the definition of "small gangs" are today, even if I tried.


My mistake. "smaller gangs":

Lord Zim wrote:
Another reason would be that smaller gangs are often flown by people who are more enthusiastic about PVP, have worked closer together over a longer period of time, etc.


Still makes the point pretty clearly.

No need to be defensive, no one is saying it's bad or evil. Well, I'm not anyway. But to deny it's the truth is just stupid.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-09-07 11:54:11 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Not "just" numbers, but numbers.

Look up the word "tenacity". It has nothing to do with numbers, or friends.

Malphilos wrote:
Again, that's the current narrative regardless of your "automatic win" strawman.

It's not a strawman, the fact of the matter is that numbers aren't an automatic I win button.

Malphilos wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Another reason would be that smaller gangs are often flown by people who are more enthusiastic about PVP, have worked closer together over a longer period of time, etc.


Still makes the point pretty clearly.

A smaller fleet with higher skilled (no, not skillpoints) players can easily engage a larger fleet of chucklefucks and win. This has happened time and time again, the latest northern war has been amass with such skirmishes where the "smaller fleet" has won the skirmish against "the blob".

Malphilos wrote:
No need to be defensive, no one is saying it's bad or evil. Well, I'm not anyway. But to deny it's the truth is just stupid.

To insist that numbers are the only thing that matters is what's stupid.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2012-09-07 17:00:22 UTC
Alright guys, I've got a real question for anyone who thinks that "small alliances" need their hands held to move out to 0.0 space. What the hell do you expect to do in 0.0 in the first place? Lets assume a hypothetical here and imagine some future where your little 100 man alliance has moved into Tribute or wherever the hell you want. What then? You enthusiastically rat in your system or pair of systems? You camp both gates you control? You set up a pos and mine coablt until its coming out of your ears? Realtalk here. What is the goal here?

Also OP, curious how you think that CCP would ever make your plan possible. From a purely mechanics standpoint its nearly impossible to imagine. Please share with the class the means by which you think that your proposal would be possible. I don't think you quite "get" 0.0 but would like it changed for your benefit when you arrive.
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2012-09-07 17:02:42 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Make more space. More nullsec and lowsec.

Make 'different' areas, like nullsec that is an island and is out of jump range of any current null or lowsec, make islands of lowsec in the middle of nullsec, make islands of nullsec in teh middle of lowsec, mix it up and get variation.


Or you know, wormholes.
Random Majere
Rogue Fleet
#109 - 2012-09-07 19:22:56 UTC
At the turn of 2009/2010 ( I was just a noob), our corp joined a small alliance called Wayfarer Stellar Initiative. I guess you could categorized it as a small alliance at that time (probably around 60 active dudes back then if I remember correctly) . We managed to grab ONE system in Cloud-Ring. The region was occupied back then with a few alliances that were not necessarily blue to each other. I remember Evoke had a few systems, there was also Solodrakesomething and a I dont remember the others. There were also a few systems that were not claimed. I remember most of us were all excited just to own ONE system and it was fun to be there (and I died so many times flying in and out that region). Then IT and the southern block attacked the NC and things evolved from there (we were eventually invited within the NC and were offered some space in Fade).

Anyways, in todays 0.0 space, I wonder if a small 70-100 member alliance can manage to take sov anywhere in null sec, on its own like we did and keep it. I guess that is where diplomacy would come into play here.

By the way, I am not complaining about big alliances here. Just trying to figure out if it is not harder today for a small alliance to own a few systems (not renting), compared to three years ago. Harder? Easier? Same? Just wondering.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-09-07 20:49:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Gorilla warfare. :v:


So chest beating and posturing threat displays? Isn't that what CAOD and Kugu is for?

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-09-07 23:48:15 UTC
Frank Gallagher wrote:
I just thought i'd get a discussion going on how you could possibly fix 0.0 so that smaller alliances could get out and take on the bigger alliances for their sov.

The blob has always caused the lag issues and node crashes, for which you gave us TIDI. The outcome of all battles will be decided on who has the most numbers in system. But what about the smaller alliances in game, how do they get a foothold in 0.0 to grow their alliances ?

Fleets have a maximum number, and i think that should be all that you are allowed to bring to the fight. 250 vs 250 in a system would reduce TIDI and probably the stress load on the sever, plus fights would come down to skills and FC's abilities. Just imagine going into fights knowing that your 5 years of skill training and pvp experience will have some sort of outcome on a fight rather than it being who has the greater number of pilots.

Give the minnows and skill based pvp a chance please.


Sounds like you playing to many high sec space......
Kari Juptris
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#112 - 2012-09-10 14:28:33 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Make more space. More nullsec and lowsec.

make islands of nullsec in teh middle of lowsec, mix it up and get variation.




This is pretty much what NPC nullsec already is, minus the gate guns. There's a bunch of regions that house NPC nullsec smack in the middle of them (Fountain, for example) that pirates and solo/small gang pvpers can base out of to prey on nullsec carebears.

edit: granted, you still need to deal with bubbles in NPC nullsec.
Kari Juptris
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#113 - 2012-09-10 14:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kari Juptris
Frank Gallagher wrote:


Fleets have a maximum number, and i think that should be all that you are allowed to bring to the fight. 250 vs 250 in a system


All this would mean is that you'd be fighting the pimpest faction/deadspace fit faction battleships you've ever seen, plus capital and supercapital support.
Ayn Randy
Home For Pugs
#114 - 2012-09-10 14:39:59 UTC
I dont think anybody understands what broke nullsec and it wasnt CCP.

CCP gave us the tools to build empires and we did. All thats broke about nullsec is that one alliance is bigger than another.

Stop complaining, its happened before, it will happen again. Those empires will fall, more will rise. Over time CCP will add new game mechanics to nullsec. But before that happens just get on with it and stop complaining.
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-09-10 17:49:49 UTC
Random Majere wrote:
Solodrakesomething

SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO [LODRA] aka Goonswarm shortly post Delve
Senshi Hawk
Tritanium Industries and Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#116 - 2012-09-10 18:23:21 UTC
This problem that the OP is having, which I am not acknowledging as an actual problem, is not unique to EVE. This is how a political structure works in video games. Strength in numbers. A small alliance can only "win" by doing very specific things.

- Rent from or join the bigger alliance, bolster both of your numbers.

- Refugee style. Quietly take space. Do not overcommit. Know your role and leave when it is no longer safe.

- Liberate. Run a gimmick and form a coalition with many similarly sized alliances, with a heading to "butt heads with a bloc", while secretly doing so for personal gain rather than the good of the coalition. In my experience in other games, the "personal gain" I speak of is the public recognition that you had the balls to fight the big boys. This usually translates to new members. But, like the refugee style, make sure you get out when it's time to get out. You're not there to win the war.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2012-09-10 18:30:25 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Frank Gallagher wrote:


Give the minnows and skill based pvp a chance please.


Just negotiate with an already established alliance to live in their area and prove yourself useful, then when you have earned their trust negotiate your own system (or help them win the land for you to live in).

Realistically in EVE as in real life politics you need friends on the international stage or you'll struggle to get anything done. Swallow your pride and cozy up to a "big" alliance while you establish yourself as a nullsec alliance.
Bam! Kitchner nailed it.

If you can't be good at something, then what makes you think that you deserve to be in space "held" by those who have put in the time, effort and resources to acquire that space?

Groom your pilots to be excellent at something. Anything. Then you will find your niche, people will notice and conversations might start taking place.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.