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Amarr Under powerd???

Author
Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#61 - 2012-09-05 22:09:00 UTC
Well, if ccp boost Amarr cruisers then amarr will b supior to gallente in small gang or solo pvp up to battleship. Amarr really dont have good solo battleships.

I'm training amarr for the changes to the coercer alone which may be overpowered v0v

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-09-05 22:23:31 UTC
when you get in the realm of capitals and heavy armor fleet doctrines Amarr is king. Legion is pvp king in W-space.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#63 - 2012-09-05 22:36:12 UTC
Casirio wrote:
Legion is pvp king in W-space.


This is the first time that I've heard anything like this. Can you tell me more?
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#64 - 2012-09-05 23:11:22 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Casirio wrote:
Legion is pvp king in W-space.


This is the first time that I've heard anything like this. Can you tell me more?


I'd love to hear as well. All I ever hear about being in W-space is Loki and Tengu. Would be great to hear Legion does something better ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Dato Koppla
Kiwis In Space
Dock Workers
#65 - 2012-09-06 00:43:11 UTC
Whats with everyone saying that Amarr has amazing pirate ships? Both the Blood Raider and Sansha line only really have good ships at the battleship class. The Succubus, Phantasm, Cruor and Ashimmu are quite rarely flown and considered to be outclassed for their price.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-09-06 02:01:31 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Casirio wrote:
Legion is pvp king in W-space.


This is the first time that I've heard anything like this. Can you tell me more?


I'd love to hear as well. All I ever hear about being in W-space is Loki and Tengu. Would be great to hear Legion does something better ;)


look at any major pvp w-space alliance/corp's killboard and you will see what I mean. but yeah devoter, guardian, HAM brawler legion (capless guns), neut legion, lazor legion, bhaalgorn, absolution, damnation, revelation, archons, list goes on... all staples of big c5-c6 wormhole groups.
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#67 - 2012-09-06 02:24:07 UTC
It's a FOTM kind of thing. It's not that Armor tanking is bad, it's that Shield tanking is too good.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
Siberian Squads
#68 - 2012-09-06 02:34:42 UTC
As a small-scale PvP pilot, I don't see how Amarr can be considered equal to even Gallente, much less Minmatar. Heck, I'd say Caldari are ahead.

But I do see where these speaches 'Amarr are good' come from. If all you're doing is pressing a button upon FC command, then yeah, Amarr might be a good choice.

All in all, having races balanced by PvP scale is simply moronic. In that case everyone meets pretty much the same ships all over again, the difference is those are A, B and C for a soloer and X, Y and Z for a blobtard.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#69 - 2012-09-06 02:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Fon Revedhort wrote:
As a small-scale PvP pilot, I don't see how Amarr can be considered equal to even Gallente, much less Minmatar. Heck, I'd say Caldari are ahead.

But I do see where these speaches 'Amarr are good' come from. If all you're doing is pressing a button upon FC command, then yeah, Amarr might be a good choice.

All in all, having races balanced by PvP scale is simply moronic. In that case everyone meets pretty much the same ships all over again, the difference is those are A, B and C for a soloer and X, Y and Z for a blobtard.


I realize that you've said this, but I don't see how you've justified it. From what I can see, Amarr is not lacking in the solo or small gang department at all. The Executioner, Sentinel, Arbitrator, NOmen, and Curse are all fantastic solo ships. The Harbinger is a bit slow but it does alright and the Oracle lacks a drone bay and also does alright.

I'm just not seeing where the beef is.

-Liang

Ed: You can arguably use the Pilgrim, Zealot, and Sacrilege for solo ships as well. The Zealot is easily the best of the bunch but gets knocked a bit for not having a drone bay.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2012-09-06 04:14:33 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
As a small-scale PvP pilot, I don't see how Amarr can be considered equal to even Gallente, much less Minmatar. Heck, I'd say Caldari are ahead.

But I do see where these speaches 'Amarr are good' come from. If all you're doing is pressing a button upon FC command, then yeah, Amarr might be a good choice.

All in all, having races balanced by PvP scale is simply moronic. In that case everyone meets pretty much the same ships all over again, the difference is those are A, B and C for a soloer and X, Y and Z for a blobtard.


I realize that you've said this, but I don't see how you've justified it. From what I can see, Amarr is not lacking in the solo or small gang department at all. The Executioner, Sentinel, Arbitrator, NOmen, and Curse are all fantastic solo ships. The Harbinger is a bit slow but it does alright and the Oracle lacks a drone bay and also does alright.

I'm just not seeing where the beef is.

-Liang

Ed: You can arguably use the Pilgrim, Zealot, and Sacrilege for solo ships as well. The Zealot is easily the best of the bunch but gets knocked a bit for not having a drone bay.



I think it's because the ships you listed for amarr are niche ships. A lot of people play amarr wanting heavy armor and laser beams of death. When you look at the ships of that basic Ammarian doctrine is when things look greener everywhere else. you grudgingly semi included harbinger, agreed its not bad the others are just better. But in pvp the most used ship class seems to be BC, or cruisers for poor folks which is what all races get compared by, right or wrong.

Sum it up, amarr has awesome ships. But a race is judged usually by its vanilla ships which aren't the ones anyone raves about when talking about amarr.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-09-06 06:59:14 UTC
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#72 - 2012-09-06 07:36:37 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it?

That is what I want.

Abbadon, Punisher, Prophecy and Maller = Dmg + Resist.
Omen, Tormentor, Apoc and Harbinger Dmg + Range.
Armageddon, Executioner and Oracle = Damge + Tracking

Omen (6 Guns no Drones)
Maller (5 Guns 25m3 Drone Bay)

Down with the Cap Bonuses.



Agreed, and highlighted the cap bonuses. Amarr feels the most vulnerable to neuts as it is in pvp (may be perception, but hey, its my view).

and you forgot:

Legion = ...well, something! Cool

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#73 - 2012-09-06 07:37:06 UTC
Gitanmaxx wrote:
lot of people play amarr wanting heavy armor and laser beams of death. When you look at the ships of that basic Ammarian doctrine is when things look greener everywhere else. you grudgingly semi included harbinger, agreed its not bad the others are just better. But in pvp the most used ship class seems to be BC, or cruisers for poor folks which is what all races get compared by, right or wrong.

Sum it up, amarr has awesome ships. But a race is judged usually by its vanilla ships which aren't the ones anyone raves about when talking about amarr.


You can sum it up even more briefly: Amarr only have one T1 cruiser, and it doesn't use lasers.

Well, OK, but tiericide's coming. Already at least four cruisers will be touched in the winter expansion.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
Siberian Squads
#74 - 2012-09-06 10:27:24 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
As a small-scale PvP pilot, I don't see how Amarr can be considered equal to even Gallente, much less Minmatar. Heck, I'd say Caldari are ahead.

But I do see where these speaches 'Amarr are good' come from. If all you're doing is pressing a button upon FC command, then yeah, Amarr might be a good choice.

All in all, having races balanced by PvP scale is simply moronic. In that case everyone meets pretty much the same ships all over again, the difference is those are A, B and C for a soloer and X, Y and Z for a blobtard.


I realize that you've said this, but I don't see how you've justified it.

As said above, I'm expecting some really hard punching from Amarr solo boats. Listing Curse among those is Ugh. Also I'd like to have different options within the same ship, just like Matari and, to lesser extent, Gallente do. Atm Amarr neither provide hard punching nor they have diverse options. That's surely mostly my personal view, but I don't see anything Amarr could potentially offer as counterparts for: NH, Tengu, Mach, Sleip, Vindi or even Golem. Bhaal is niche, Nightmare is pathetically slow and hardly usable in dynamic environment, Abso is lacking is many ways, plain tech1 batteships are meh for solo (while both Phoon and Pest are quite good) and Legion lacks DPS for my taste. I guess I've covered the 'assault' department.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-09-06 12:43:40 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
As said above, I'm expecting some really hard punching from Amarr solo boats. Listing Curse among those is Ugh.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLI-XhxWEsY
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#76 - 2012-09-06 16:46:28 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:

As said above, I'm expecting some really hard punching from Amarr solo boats. Listing Curse among those is Ugh. Also I'd like to have different options within the same ship, just like Matari and, to lesser extent, Gallente do. Atm Amarr neither provide hard punching nor they have diverse options. That's surely mostly my personal view, but I don't see anything Amarr could potentially offer as counterparts for: NH, Tengu, Mach, Sleip, Vindi or even Golem. Bhaal is niche, Nightmare is pathetically slow and hardly usable in dynamic environment, Abso is lacking is many ways, plain tech1 batteships are meh for solo (while both Phoon and Pest are quite good) and Legion lacks DPS for my taste. I guess I've covered the 'assault' department.


I think that pointing out a few iconic ships and claiming that Amarr is bad at solo because they don't have these ships is pretty bizarre. Just as Amarr doesn't have the Vindi Sleip or Tengu, neither does anyone else have the Curse, Oracle, or Bhaalgorn. It truly boggles my mind that you can go from saying that the Curse is bad to saying the NH is good.

Seeing as how you included the Tengu on this list (which is pretty meh without Loki+Tengu links backing it up), I'm going to assume that you're not interested in "true solo". With equal pimpage and links, the Zealot and Legion are perfectly acceptable substitutes here and are probably more effective than you give them credit for. Once you start moving this play style up to the Mach, the Oracle also becomes a good stand in.

You went on to talk about the Vindi and Golem for their raw damage application power. The Vindi is indeed impressive but is easily kited and crippled by range. One thing that I think you missed is that the Paladin is actually pretty good for this. It's got a strong active tank, good DPS, and fantastic general damage application. Furthermore, it's just flat superior to the Golem because you can trade your Crystals for Grails. Yeah it doesn't have the Raw Damage of the Vindi, but sometimes it's not all about Raw Damage eh?

The biggest down side to Amarr right now is that they're ill equipped to take use ASBs on their own ships. On the other hand, they're perfectly positioned to take advantage of the ASB Craze.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#77 - 2012-09-06 19:23:18 UTC
Solo:

Both the slicer and coercer are good. The coercer is going to get nerfed and lose that 4 low though and then I don't know how good it will be anymore.

The problems with larger amarr solo are 2:
1) You can easilly get caught by smaller ships and not have any mids for webs.
2) You don't have the mids to effectively use asbs.

The apoc used to be decent if if you put 2 large neuts on there. But now with asbs not using cap I wouldn't fly them solo.

For gangs and fleets amarr have good ships though.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#78 - 2012-09-06 19:26:45 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Solo:

Both the slicer and coercer are good. The coercer is going to get nerfed and lose that 4 low though and then I don't know how good it will be anymore.

The problems with larger amarr solo are 2:
1) You can easilly get caught by smaller ships and not have any mids for webs.
2) You don't have the mids to effectively use asbs.

The apoc used to be decent if if you put 2 large neuts on there. But now with asbs not using cap I wouldn't fly them solo.

For gangs and fleets amarr have good ships though.



Duuude, try the Executioner out. It's not as nice as the Slicer but it's pretty damn fine. Also, with Med Pulse and Med Beams getting buffed... !

Anyway, the Arbitrator is actually a pretty great solo ship. ASB fit with drone damage mods, it's easily superior to the Vexor.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#79 - 2012-09-06 19:35:03 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Solo:

Both the slicer and coercer are good. The coercer is going to get nerfed and lose that 4 low though and then I don't know how good it will be anymore.

The problems with larger amarr solo are 2:
1) You can easilly get caught by smaller ships and not have any mids for webs.
2) You don't have the mids to effectively use asbs.

The apoc used to be decent if if you put 2 large neuts on there. But now with asbs not using cap I wouldn't fly them solo.

For gangs and fleets amarr have good ships though.



Duuude, try the Executioner out. It's not as nice as the Slicer but it's pretty damn fine. Also, with Med Pulse and Med Beams getting buffed... !

Anyway, the Arbitrator is actually a pretty great solo ship. ASB fit with drone damage mods, it's easily superior to the Vexor.

-Liang



I agree.

I haven't really checked the new executioner, and I should.

Also yeah the arbi is a good solo ship. I haven't tried it myself but I fought them and they can be very effective.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Idris Helion
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-09-07 17:32:45 UTC
Amarr ships are great, but I think they do better in a PVP role than as mission-runners. The inability of lasers to do much kinetic/explosive damage really hurts Amarr boats (esp. against Angels) in missions. If you look at the DPS a Drake can put out as opposed to a Harby (with high fitting skills), for example, you see the problem. The Harby is good, but a Drake eats it for lunch in mission-running. Or take the Omen: good laser boat, but a properly fitted Caracal will outperform it in nearly any mission-running scenario.

Caldari ships are the kings of PVE mainly due to the flexibility, damage, and range of missiles. The only really decent Amarr missile boat is the Sacrilege, and it's both expensive and hard to train into for low SP chars. It's easier, cheaper, and faster to just train the Caracal instead.

Same goes for Destroyers: the Coercer is fine, but is outperformed by the Catalyst and the Thrasher.

This is ultimately the problem with the Amarr lineup: lots of good ships, but none are really "best in class" for their role.