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Amarr Under powerd???

Author
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-09-05 17:50:33 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Which part of "is hardly the main issue" don't you understand?


Is limited damage types also "hardly the main issue"?

Btw, WTB EM ammo for hybrids.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#42 - 2012-09-05 18:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Vilnius Zar wrote:
The problem Amarr has is the following:

- massive fitting issues, it's nigh impossible for a lower SP character to fit a decent laserboat and even at super high SP it can be a *****
- massive cap issues with laserboats, obvious really
- lack of mobility, mass/agility plays a role but also cap use is an issue, you simply can't run MWD together with a point and lasers as you can with projectiles on a minnie ship
- lack of control, as amarr ships tend to lack midslots and mobility it's very difficult to control a scenario and because of that they tend to do better in fleet roles than solo
- reliance on Scorch, pulse lasers "suck" till you get scorch and then they're OP. It's not very well balanced
- pulse lasers are "mid range" weapons, while it adds versatility it also lacks focus
- useless bonuses on some Amarr ships (see Maller and Prophecy)


Comments:
- I think that saying it's nigh impossible to fit a decent laser ship is a huge stretch. There are ships which are very slightly gimped on fittings and have to make some sacrifices I'd rather not, but claiming the ships aren't decent because of it is kinda laughable. Certainly there are some ships with absolutely terrible fittings, but that's hardly a systemic problem.
- Cap issues *can* be problematic, I agree. But that's kinda the racial down side so it shouldn't be too surprising. The ships that I've had the worst time with have been the Phantasm and NOmen. But, I still like them both. :)
- It seems to me that Amarr ships generally have enough mid slots for control. It's not always true (Oracle, Armageddon, current Coercer), but obviously that's not a game breaker because those are some of the best Amarr ships.
- The issue of mobility is sometimes true and sometimes false. There are many Amarr ships that are highly mobile. There are many that aren't. I'm really looking forward to seeing what CCP does with the basic tank style imbalances. At the least, I think we can expect an end to the ASB-only small gang meta and the end of the current armor rig penalty.
- Eh, all turret weapons rely on their T2 ammo for their major bonus. I'm not sure why you feel that lasers should be different.
- Pulse lasers have great focus. Generally they focus down the enemy no matter where they are on the battlefield. They are awesome.
- Yes, some ships suck. This is true for all races - even the recently rebalanced ones. Seriously, check out the new Vigil vs the new Crucifier. LOL, Minmatar are getting so ****** by the new rebalance.

-Liang

Ed: With regards to tracking: laser tracking is generally sufficient. You have to remember that when you're comparing Barrage and Scorch you should be talking about damage application instead of tracking. The optimal of Scorch (and lasers in general) is so amazingly powerful that it tends to overwhelm the superior tracking of Barrage.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-09-05 18:41:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I dunno, every race has their awesome ships and their not so awesome ships. There's enough awesome ships in the Amarr lineup that I don't regret training them.

-Liang


Concidering you have like all ship skills in game maxed though this doesn't really say that much. Would you be happy with Amarr ships all by themselves without beeing able to support yourself on another race?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#44 - 2012-09-05 18:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I dunno, every race has their awesome ships and their not so awesome ships. There's enough awesome ships in the Amarr lineup that I don't regret training them.

-Liang


Concidering you have like all ship skills in game maxed though this doesn't really say that much. Would you be happy with Amarr ships all by themselves without beeing able to support yourself on another race?


Heh, that's a fair point. I'll answer it by pointing out that my FW alt is trained into Amarr for general solo PVP. The ships I would personally focus on are the Executioner, Slicer, Sentinel, Purifier, Arbitrator, NOmen, Harbinger, Oracle, Zealot, Curse, and Guardian. That alt is pretty low SP so it's only got max Executioner, Slicer, Sentinel, Purifier, Arbitrator, NOmen, and Harbinger. It's a perfectly viable character. :)

-Liang

Ed: To be clear, I tend to value small fast cheap ships. The Harbinger (and Abso) are a bit slow for my tastes. The Executioner, Purifier, and NOmen are my go to ships for that character. Well, the Purifier would be if he couldn't also use the Manticore. Blink Speaking of which, he can also use the Condor... watch out!

But really, I just solo roam with Liang these days. At least until my main catches back up on subcap skills.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Bill Serkoff2
Tachyon Technology
#45 - 2012-09-05 19:07:41 UTC
but the ships look so bloody awesome

"The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " -Iam Widdershins

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#46 - 2012-09-05 19:14:43 UTC
It occurs to me that I might start roaming null sec with that alt. His SP is low enough that his clone costs are so much cheaper...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-09-05 19:18:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
*shnip*


I'll have to counter with the same arguement I used last time though. Because even if it's an alt you have access to other ships for your non FW needs through your other characters. I'm not really at the point where I have all races maxed myself so I can't really speak about that.

But at least from my experience with other games, it's much easier to enjoy a subpar class when you don't "have" to play it at all times. For instance speaking in terms of Diablo 3 I had all classes at level 60 after like a couple of weeks after launch (I had a lot of time then, this week I've gamed less then 5h ;p) and obviously there were huge balancing issues back, some classes were mindblowing others sucked hard by comparison. But I still managed to truely enjoy all classes from 1-59, but I dare say that was only because I had my level 60 characters to support me and I made some smart choices. Aka I played endgame on Wiz when they were OP, on DH after that when they were the gamebreakers and right before the melee patch arrived I pwned the game on a Barb.

Point being that a race, class or ship being subpar doesn't really mean it isn't fun to play with. But it's borderline depressing to rely on it exclusively because you lack that extra Oomph/Cowbell when you wanna do something your race doesn't do as well.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#48 - 2012-09-05 19:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
The grass is always greener on the other side. Anyone who is restricted to a single class will always point at something another class does better and claim that their class is broken. Fortunately, Eve is not a game where you are actually restricted.

There is very little wrong with Amarr that rebalancing a few key ships wouldn't fix.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, you can always point at games with absolutely terrible balance. But that doesn't mean you should apply the same measuring stick to games with actually good balance.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#49 - 2012-09-05 19:57:30 UTC
I'll put it this way. Stop focusing on what you perceive to be the down sides of various ships. What role is it that you feel that Amarr cannot compete in? Solo PVP? Small gang PVP? Large gang PVP? Nano gangs? Come on - what's your beef?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Alara IonStorm
#50 - 2012-09-05 19:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:

Point being that a race, class or ship being subpar doesn't really mean it isn't fun to play with. But it's borderline depressing to rely on it exclusively because you lack that extra Oomph/Cowbell when you wanna do something your race doesn't do as well.

Yes but I think this is acceptable for EVE. Because in EVE your race doesn't really exist, just the ships you can currently fly.

It is specialization vs utility in EVE. I can fly every T1 Battleship, Battlecruiser, Cruiser, Frigate and Destroyer with T2 weapons and good all around stats. About 90% effective across the T1 board. If I had put that all into one race I would be maxed in it. A person who enjoys that play style would be happy but I prefer variety and took the hit to be a little less effective to have more options. I have T2 Minmatar Frigates and am taking up Gallente Cruiser to V partially because I like the Thorax, partially because I want T2 Gal Cruisers. After that Minmatar Cruisers and the SP jump to command ship followed by, followed by, followed by. I have a ton of current options and each month open up a new one or a better one.

If you don't want your eggs in one basket don't put them there. A race in EVE is like a class in another game, it can do a lot but one is an Archer at heart, another a brute, another a ninja.

There is some cross over, you can brawl out or kite with a Harbinger or Nano up a Cruiser or use the races odd Drone or Missile Ship with a bit less effectiveness then a race that does that specifically but can give you an idea of where you want to go direction wise. The real depressing thing is useless ships and underpowered ships. What is depressing to cross train and get those T2 Projectiles just to find out there is one Minmatar Cruiser, one Minmatar Frigate and if you want good options you have to wait until T2 Ships provided they are not boinked. That is why the re-balance is such a great thing.

I think that system is a great design and all it needs is for the dead leaves to be pruned so new ones can grow like the new Punisher and Incursus.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2012-09-05 20:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it? Right now it just doesn't project damage quite well enough and it it's not quite mobile enough and it's just not quite tanky enough. It needs help in one of those categories.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Alara IonStorm
#52 - 2012-09-05 20:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Malcanis wrote:
I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it?

That is what I want.

Abbadon, Punisher, Prophecy and Maller = Dmg + Resist.
Omen, Tormentor, Apoc and Harbinger Dmg + Range.
Armageddon, Executioner and Oracle = Damge + Tracking

Omen (6 Guns no Drones)
Maller (5 Guns 25m3 Drone Bay)

Down with the Cap Bonuses.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#53 - 2012-09-05 20:06:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it? Right now it just doesn't project damage quite well enough and it it's not quite mobile enough and it's just not quite tanky enough. It needs help in one of those categories.


Hmmm, sure - I can see some smallish boosts to the Harbinger. A resist bonus would eat the role of the Prophecy and an optimal bonus would utterly obsolete the Zealot. To me it's just a couple of moderate stats changes. Add a bit of fittings space and increase mobility a bit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#54 - 2012-09-05 20:08:39 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it?

That is what I want.

Abbadon, Punisher, Prophecy and Maller = Dmg + Resist.
Omen, Tormentor, Apoc and Harbinger Dmg + Range.
Armageddon, Executioner and Oracle = Damge + Tracking

Omen (6 Guns no Drones)
Maller (5 Guns 25m3 Drone Bay)

Down with the Cap Bonuses.


I think people should be more careful about suggesting tracking and optimal bonuses. Most of those ships are either fine or need only a small nudge. A revamp of that scale would make Amarr The Race To Fly, Hands Down.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#55 - 2012-09-05 20:21:04 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I do feel that the Harb could do with just a little love to bring it up to the standard of the other tier2 BCs. It doesn't need a whole lot...maybe just a range bonus to make it into a minipoc, or a resist bonus to make it into a minibaddon? I don't know - maybe just a moderate stat change would do it? Right now it just doesn't project damage quite well enough and it it's not quite mobile enough and it's just not quite tanky enough. It needs help in one of those categories.


Hmmm, sure - I can see some smallish boosts to the Harbinger. A resist bonus would eat the role of the Prophecy and an optimal bonus would utterly obsolete the Zealot. To me it's just a couple of moderate stats changes. Add a bit of fittings space and increase mobility a bit.

-Liang


Yep I pretty much agree. A smidgen of powergrid and a judicious mass reduction would do the trick.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Alara IonStorm
#56 - 2012-09-05 20:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

I think people should be more careful about suggesting tracking and optimal bonuses. Most of those ships are either fine or need only a small nudge. A revamp of that scale would make Amarr The Race To Fly, Hands Down.

-Liang

Yes you're right. That was my thoughts on one race but say for Cruiser balance in general I was thinking something along these lines:

Omen (6 Guns no Drones) Dmg + Opt. 6 High, 3 Mid, 6 Low
Maller (5 Guns 25m3 Drone Bay) Dmg + Resist 6 High, 3 Mid, 6 Low

Stabber (5 Guns 25m3 Drone Bay) Dmg + Falloff 6 High, 4 Mid, 5 Low
Rupture (6 Guns No Drones) Dmg + Otp 6 High, 4 Mid, 5 Low

Moa (6 Guns No Drones) Dmg + Otp 6 High, 5 Mid, 4 Low
Caracal (5 Launchers 25m3 Drone Bay) Dmg + Resist 6 High, 6 Mid, 3 Low

Thorax (6 Guns no Drones) Dmg + Falloff. 6 High, 3 Mid, 6 Low
Vexor (5 Guns 100m2 Drone Bay) Dmg + Drone Dmg. 5 High, 4 Mid, 5 Low

Sort of like each race having a fleet / gang Cruisers whose job is Range + Dmg with the Thorax execption being faster but higher Dmg for smaller gangs. Then each race having a less focused utility combat Cruiser with Drones, Neut Slot and such.

For the smaller gang ships, Minmatar being speed, Gallente Dmg, Amarr Armor Heavy Tank, Caldari Shield Heavy Tank.
For the Fleet Ones Amarr having Sig Tanking, Minmatar Agility, Moa Tank, Thorax in your face Dmg.

I know it isn't fully thought out but it is what I am kicking around. Seems a bit to uniformed but every race and weapon has something unique and I could see all these ships being useful. The HAC's of course being deigned to match this with 2 Dmg Bonuses, Extra Bonus and T2 Resists. Of course a big part of it would have to do with speed, fitting and capacitor redesigns to match the ships.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#57 - 2012-09-05 20:34:00 UTC
I honestly don't like it, but it doesn't matter what either of us think. By Spring I suspect we'll be seeing the Tierification roll out to cruiser hulls. How exciting!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Alara IonStorm
#58 - 2012-09-05 20:36:13 UTC
I know.

Medium Gun Vexor here I come!

Big smile
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-09-05 21:21:26 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:


Even though its not the greatest, the Legion can be a Zealot + insane tank.



+1 The Legion may not have the sharpest claws of the the T3 lineup but it certainly has the thickest skin.

I think most Amarr boats tend to be durable and solid if somewhat underwhelming. Obviously all Armor tank well, and quite a few can shield tank decently (Nano Harbinger anyone? Twisted) Lasers aren't perfect, but they are easy to use and flexible; rapid ammo swapping solid ranges and good optimal windows.

I'm a Amarr lover though so I'm biased I guess.

Less important but also noteworthy, they are also by in large the prettiest ships in the game. Only a handful are embarassing to fly. Most Gallente are putrid. Caldari symmetry issues make them annoying to look at. Minmatar are alright and a close second in the looks department, shout outs to the Hurricane, Maelstrom, and Tempest in particular and of course the Rifter is iconic.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Taoist Dragon
SHAVED
#60 - 2012-09-05 21:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Amarr have some issues - yes.

Minmatar have some issues - yes.

Caldari have some issues - yes.

Gallente have some issues - yes.


Ok now that is cleared up, OP how exactly are amarr underpowered???????

They have their own issue like every other bloody race has.......if you don't like their issues fly something else or L2 fly amarr properly don't try to make them a gold minnie or laser toting gallente brawler. If this is your problem well then I'm sorry nothing that will be said on this forum will help you.

Adapt to how the amarr fly and you'll be fine otherwise stop whining and go fly ****!


PS. since I picked amarr and my primary race to fly I have been flying more kitey/agile stuff than when I flew minnie almost exclusively so......

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.