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NULL whiners mantra is getting tedious... and CSM lacks HI SEC representation

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Author
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#541 - 2012-09-03 23:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
DarthNefarius wrote:
I beleive a HI SEC rep would push for such an improved mission agenda. I think CSM7 only mention missions in passing ( or did I miss a paragraph about mission grinding in all 200 pages? )

You guys have a hisec rep on the CSM already, how many do you need?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#542 - 2012-09-03 23:06:44 UTC
there are multiple CSM reps who live in highsec, none of them think highsec carebearing should be easier
hth
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#543 - 2012-09-03 23:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
The issue is organising that bunch of carebears to actually do something. Most of them don't give a crap about eve politics, as long as they can do as they please in highsec. While i don't share in the low and null-sec hatred of high-sec players (Thats a different topic alltogether!), the idea of them actually getting together to form a voting block is a bit of a laugh. Unless the CSM starts doing things that drasticly effect they're lives, most of them won't care in the slightest. Not to mention all the crazy demographics, languages etc, you're going to be facing a serious problem to overcome. And even if you do manage to get them to vote for you, they'll probably have so many different conflicting opinions on what should be done, representing them would be a nightmare!

I'd recommend a new face though...... appearences are important in politics afterall. Cool

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#544 - 2012-09-03 23:40:46 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
there are multiple CSM reps who live in highsec, none of them think highsec carebearing should be easier
hth


Multiple? I've heard in these forms that there are 2 which I don't beleive either is one. One of them is the EVE UNI representative therefore not something I'd consider a HI SEC representative ( doubt Poetic Stanza considers him anything but the anti Christ too P ) and the other has a couple systems of NULL sec sov in his corp I am suspicious of him even being considered a HINO ( Hisec In Name Only ) And further from reading the minutes I don't recall them saying anything at all ( anything I missed? )

I stand by my original post CSM7 lacks any HI SEC representation.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2012-09-03 23:50:28 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
there are multiple CSM reps who live in highsec, none of them think highsec carebearing should be easier
hth


Multiple? I've heard in these forms that there are 2 which I don't beleive either is one. One of them is the EVE UNI representative therefore not something I'd consider a HI SEC representative ( doubt Poetic Stanza considers him anything but the anti Christ too P ) and the other has a couple systems of NULL sec sov in his corp I am suspicious of him even being considered a HINO ( Hisec In Name Only ) And further from reading the minutes I don't recall them saying anything at all ( anything I missed? )

I stand by my original post CSM7 lacks any HI SEC representation.

Who would be a "hisec representative", then? What issues, other than "PVE is boring :( :( :(" should they push for you to accept them?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#546 - 2012-09-04 00:37:36 UTC
I think the case for highsec's low representation has been clearly pointed out several times now.

There are 2 very plain groups that don't vote for highsec CSM represenation;


The Alt
Alts owned by null/low/wh players that are just in highsec to perform some minor function. If these characters do vote, they'll just be voting for CSM candidates that represent the region they really play in.


The Apathetic
People who simply don't care to get involved with Eve politics. And when it comes to highsec, they really have very little to complain about enough to get some one elected to the CSM.


Actually neither group probably has much to complain about. The Alt is in highsec because of some sort of comparative advantage. The Apathetic is in highsec because it is the "nice neighborhood" of Eve. Consumer goods and capital are cheap and plentiful. Highsec market hubs have anything you may want to buy and buyers for anything you may have. An unlimited supply of isk generating activities as missions. An automated police force that keeps crime to a minimum.


So I'm not at all surprised that the residents of the Beverly Hills of Eve aren't agitating for a lot of change or bothering to vote for the CSM after all the publicity it gets. They got easy money, low crime, and anything they could possible buy no more than a dozen jumps away.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#547 - 2012-09-04 01:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: serras bang
Lord Zim wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
there are multiple CSM reps who live in highsec, none of them think highsec carebearing should be easier
hth


Multiple? I've heard in these forms that there are 2 which I don't beleive either is one. One of them is the EVE UNI representative therefore not something I'd consider a HI SEC representative ( doubt Poetic Stanza considers him anything but the anti Christ too P ) and the other has a couple systems of NULL sec sov in his corp I am suspicious of him even being considered a HINO ( Hisec In Name Only ) And further from reading the minutes I don't recall them saying anything at all ( anything I missed? )

I stand by my original post CSM7 lacks any HI SEC representation.

Who would be a "hisec representative", then? What issues, other than "PVE is boring :( :( :(" should they push for you to accept them?


this is actualy a fairly relevent question that ide like to hear hi sec views on as ive said before i know of a few personal miffs that seem to be shared by a few but to get a decent point of view from others would be enlightening.
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#548 - 2012-09-04 02:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
The evidence does not support the accusation: Crimewatch. War Decs. Incursions. NPC space. Manufacturing. Factional Warfare. UI changes. Starbases. Ring Mining. Security. Most of these overlap with both Null sec and Hi-sec. Both stand to gain from changes to these systems.

Taken in totality, Null sec specific issues were far less discussed than issues dealing with the rest of the game, so this hate is not justified.
No More Heroes
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#549 - 2012-09-04 05:41:42 UTC
I think we're gonna need Issler Dainze to chime in here and answer constituent concerns. Oops

.

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#550 - 2012-09-04 06:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Frying Doom wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
The CSM is represented by the majority opinion. That is a fact. If the majority opinion was "carebear oriented" the majority of the CSM would be "carebear" represented.

The simple truth is that the majority of Eve players want to fly around in space ships and blow each other up.

I love the use of the word fact.

As we have no data on the majority of EvE players only the minority, the word fact might be a bit strong here. The simple truth is ship get blown up in eve, people make ships in eve and some others buy and sell stuff, not to mention the people who mine gas for drugs, PI for POSs and all the things go on in EvE.

It is rather strange to say the Majority, when the majority do not use the forums, vote or do anything external to the game we can easily find.


I didn't say majority of players, I said majority opinion, its not the same thing. If we are voting and I represent a community of 20 active players that participate in the high end echelons of the game (Sov Wars for example), and we all make sure to vote for our favorite CSM's and ensure that our voices are represented while 20 random people in Eve living out in High Sec who don't bother with the forum and don't vote, even if they disagree with us, their opinion becomes the minority opinion and we become the majority. In essence, those who participate and take hold of the reigns and hold themselves accountable for ensuring they are heard end up with the most influence over the game.

While we don't have an exact accounting for how many players represent what line of thinking, we do know that the CSM is represented by the majority opinion, else they would not hold that position.

If carebears and high sec dwellers wish to have a presence on the CSM, VOTE. Its that simple. Until then they will remain the minority opinion and their relevance will continue to be second to the players that care enough about the game to participate in its community.

So again, its a fact that CSM represents the majority opinion.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#551 - 2012-09-04 06:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Kryss Darkdust wrote:

While we don't have an exact accounting for how many players represent what line of thinking, we do know that the CSM is represented by the majority opinion, else they would not hold that position.


Malarky each of the CSM was voted in with EXTREME minority percentages.
Mittans got 10k votes divide that by 300k+ accounts andyou get ~3% THAT IS NOT A MAJORITY OPINION BY ANY STRECH

lol the guy with the largest 'majority opinion' got tossed on his arse & thrown under the bus to boot Lol
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#552 - 2012-09-04 06:24:28 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
there are multiple CSM reps who live in highsec, none of them think highsec carebearing should be easier
hth


Multiple? I've heard in these forms that there are 2 which I don't beleive either is one.

There are three.
Frying Doom
#553 - 2012-09-04 07:02:04 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:


I didn't say majority of players, I said majority opinion, its not the same thing. If we are voting and I represent a community of 20 active players that participate in the high end echelons of the game (Sov Wars for example), and we all make sure to vote for our favorite CSM's and ensure that our voices are represented while 20 random people in Eve living out in High Sec who don't bother with the forum and don't vote, even if they disagree with us, their opinion becomes the minority opinion and we become the majority. In essence, those who participate and take hold of the reigns and hold themselves accountable for ensuring they are heard end up with the most influence over the game.

So what you are saying is the old English system of having only wealth male land owners voting made them a majority, so the others did not need to vote. Very nice...

A majority opinion is the opinion of the majority, not a sub-set of the majority. Calling it anything else is just spin doctoring.

Those who do not currently vote might do so because they are apathetic, new, do not understand the function of the CSM, may believe it is a Null sec thing, they might even consider it useless or they may just beive its something for us big mouth forum dwellers.

The only way we can know is further education and mandatory abstain or vote buttons anything else is just pandering to minorities.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#554 - 2012-09-04 07:03:01 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes that is possible and it is also possible more people will vote.

Didn't Issler and Hanz make a route through high-sec doing some advertising? I also recall around that time a lot of people doing the same in local for their own pet candidate.

You might as well face the facts. People simply aren't going to vote, even if you force them, and you really don't want the willfully ignorant voting because they're just going to press the first button they see..

Subsequently the first buttons they see should be one for abstain and one for vote.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#555 - 2012-09-04 07:04:27 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:

That is for actual real life stuff. However, I answered your question but I have no idea what it has to do with the ridiculous suggestion that High Sec is hard done by because it's players don't vote. No amount of "voter outreach programs" will get people to vote if they don't care.

Thank you for answering that, and my thing is not how hi-sec is hard done by mine is that people need to be further educated. The OP was going on about some such Hi-sec thing.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#556 - 2012-09-04 07:04:57 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes that is possible and it is also possible more people will vote.

What's the likelihood?

More likely than none of them will vote.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#557 - 2012-09-04 07:05:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
ERMAGERD TEH ENTERNEYT SPESSHIPS DUN HAS ENUFF REPRESNTSHUN

ok then, have you considered speech therapy?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#558 - 2012-09-04 07:09:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


How is a "purely popular vote" favoring null sec?

More to the point, why in hell does anyone thing the most protected and coddled space in the game needs input?

Everyone should have representation and input, that way they are represented in the case of Nerfs or in the case of things becoming unbalanced.

We should all take more interest in the process, then maybe we would have less whine to fill the forums with.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#559 - 2012-09-04 07:43:43 UTC
Quote:
So what you are saying is the old English system of having only wealth male land owners voting made them a majority, so the others did not need to vote. Very nice...


Yes it is, except that whether you are the wealthy elite or the poor pauper you still get to vote and your vote counts for no more or less than the vote of the wealthy (to use your analogy). But whoever decides to vote, makes up the only numbers that count, those that do not, do not matter.

Quote:

A majority opinion is the opinion of the majority, not a sub-set of the majority. Calling it anything else is just spin doctoring.


I'm confused about what aspect of this is spin doctoring. What you are basically saying is that a person who doesn't vote should still be represented? How the hell are we supposed to know who qualifies to represent them if they don't vote? Are we supposed to use our mind reading skills? That's far fetched, even for Western standards.

Quote:

Those who do not currently vote might do so because they are apathetic, new, do not understand the function of the CSM, may believe it is a Null sec thing, they might even consider it useless or they may just beive its something for us big mouth forum dwellers.


Yeah we call those people the minority.

Quote:

The only way we can know is further education and mandatory abstain or vote buttons anything else is just pandering to minorities.


Its a video game not a political campaign here. Can we agree that if you love a game you'll probably take the time to figure things out and if you don't care enough to do it be it because your apathetic, new or do not understand the function of the CSM or any other reasoning you come up with you are just going to have to live without representation.

I think the only exception to that should be (and in my opinion is) new players who are represented very well by CCP itself who cares a great deal about them and has steered the game in their favor with almost every expansion since release. New Player Experience is getting constant attention and they even have blanket passes like gank immunity under threat that if you try it you will be banned, so I would say they are represented quite well.

Outside of new players anyone who doesn't vote, has no excuse nor valid reason to complain about the makeup of the CSM.

Its pretty cut and dry to me, and I find myself repeating it. CSM is represented by the people who care the most about the game, those that get involved, they educate themselves, they read the CSM articles, find out about the topics, discuss and ultimately vote for those who best represent them. So its working as intended as far as Im concerned.

Just out of curiosity how else would you expect it to work?

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Signal11th
#560 - 2012-09-04 07:49:21 UTC
Like with most things there is an easy solution.

Get behind a high-sec dweller and vote, it's really that easy. I think what most people are alluding to is the fact that although null-sec residents are typically lower than their high-sec counterparts the very fact they are 0.0 dwellers indicates they are more prone to self reliance and more likely to vote.

All you need is a few thousand votes and you will get a seat.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!