These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Hard. Harder. And Math Oh My.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Boudacca Sangrere
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-08-30 07:56:26 UTC
I am trying to wrap my head around resists. On my Drake I usually fly with one active and one passive hardener per rat damage type. Combined with the boni inherent to the Drake and decent Shield skills make it into an extremely tanky ship. When browsing fits on battleclinic I have not seen people do so (fit active AND passive hardeners). Hence I am questioning the wisdom of my fit (eventhough it works, as in I can do all level 4s with relative ease). Being quite new to the game means that I just do not have much in terms of reference data as to how things SHOULD work.

My questions:

Does it make sense to fit active and passive hardeners?

How do the laws of diminishing returns affect this (i.e. why not fit two active)?

I would really appreciate the sage advise of the resident modu...err gear heads).


Thank you,

Boudacca


P.S. Currently stuck in the hospital so no access to the game.
Alara IonStorm
#2 - 2012-08-30 08:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Boudacca Sangrere wrote:

How do the laws of diminishing returns affect this (i.e. why not fit two active)?

How stacking effects attributes is the highest one counts the most. For instance if you had one active EM Hardener II and one EM Resist Amplifier II the Resist Amp would receive the stacking penalty while the Hardener would be unmolested. If the Active Harder is turned off it gives a small amount of passive defense and therefor would be the module now penalized instead of the Amp. If you have an Active EM Harder, an EM Resist Amp and an Invuln Field on your ship then the EM Hardener would not be penalized, the Resist Amp would be and the Invuln would also be for its EM stat but to a greater degree then the Amp while the other 3 non EM resists it boosts would be left un-penalized.

Here is how much each modules value is with 100% being the most powerful followed by the next most powerful and so on.

1 100%
2 87%
3 57%
4 28%
5 10.5%
6 3%

So in the example above the EM Hardener would be 100% effective, the Resist Amp 87% and the Invuln's EM resist boost 57% effective.

Damage Controls give a resist boost to both armor and shields but are unaffected by penalties with the amount given being added to the base amount of resists.

Boudacca Sangrere wrote:

P.S. Currently stuck in the hospital so no access to the game.

Feel well soon.
Boudacca Sangrere
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-08-30 08:48:29 UTC
Perfect!

This makes /finally) sense to me. Thank you so much for taking the time to spell it out so well for me.


/salute

Boudacca
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4 - 2012-08-30 09:46:03 UTC
Some information about calculating resists. When you use 2 modules that add the same damage resistance type (Say EM hardeners), the percentage of the resistance applied is relative to the non-resisted amount.

What I just said makes no sense to you so let me explain.

Let's say we have 2 hardeners providing a 40% EM bonus each, and your base EM resistance is 0%.

Applying 1 hardener will give you 40% resistance, leaving you with 60% 'non-resisted'. Applying a second hardener will give improve you resistance by 40% of the non-resisted amount, which is 60%... a total of 24%.

Using both hardeners will give you 64% resistance.

Oh god.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#5 - 2012-08-30 10:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: nahjustwarpin
Riot Girl wrote:
Some information about calculating resists. When you use 2 modules that add the same damage resistance type (Say EM hardeners), the percentage of the resistance applied is relative to the non-resisted amount.

What I just said makes no sense to you so let me explain.

Let's say we have 2 hardeners providing a 40% EM bonus each, and your base EM resistance is 0%.

Applying 1 hardener will give you 40% resistance, leaving you with 60% 'non-resisted'. Applying a second hardener will give improve you resistance by 40% of the non-resisted amount, which is 60%... a total of 24%.

Using both hardeners will give you 64% resistance.


(example on ingame hardeners, so you can check that it's right)
55% hardener on EM will leave 55% resist,
second 55% will leave (1-0.55)*0.55*0.87 = 21.5% + (base)55% = 76.5% resist

in your example (1-0.4)*0.4*0.87 = 20.9% + (base)40% = 60.9%
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6 - 2012-08-30 10:50:04 UTC
I'm not really good at understanding equations. I tested it on EFT with armour hardeners and worked it out this way.

Base EM - 50%
Hardener (55%)
Hardener (55%)

The first Hardener will apply 55% of 50 ( the non-resisted amount).
50/20 = 2.5
2.5 x 11 = 27.5% + 50% = 77.5% resistance.

The second hardener receives a penalty, reducing its effectiveness to 0.87x.

I figured this out by taking the value of the second harder, 55/100 = 0.55
0.55x87 = 48.75

The second hardener's resistance is worth 48.75%

Our non-resisted figure is now 22.5 as we already have 77.5% resistance.

22.5/10000 = 0.00225
0.00225x4875 = 10.9 rounded down.

So the second hardener will add around 10.9 to our current resist of 77.5% = 88.4%

EFT gives me a figure of 88.3% so I guess there is some miscalculation.

I'm not sure if that is the same as your equation. I'm a bit dumb when it comes to math, so this is just how I figured it out according to how I was told it works.

Oh god.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#7 - 2012-08-30 10:57:24 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
I'm not really good at understanding equations. I tested it on EFT with armour hardeners and worked it out this way.

Base EM - 50%
Hardener (55%)
Hardener (55%)

The first Hardener will apply 55% of 50 ( the non-resisted amount).
50/20 = 2.5
2.5 x 11 = 27.5% + 50% = 77.5% resistance.

The second hardener receives a penalty, reducing its effectiveness to 0.87x.

I figured this out by taking the value of the second harder, 55/100 = 0.55
0.55x87 = 48.75

The second hardener's resistance is worth 48.75%

Our non-resisted figure is now 22.5 as we already have 77.5% resistance.

22.5/10000 = 0.00225
0.00225x4875 = 10.9 rounded down.

So the second hardener will add around 10.9 to our current resist of 77.5% = 88.4%

EFT gives me a figure of 88.3% so I guess there is some miscalculation.

I'm not sure if that is the same as your equation. I'm a bit dumb when it comes to math, so this is just how I figured it out according to how I was told it works.


now you're right, in first example you didn't apply stacking penalty