These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Trying to Make Everyone the Same
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#41 - 2012-08-30 23:45:06 UTC
Azdan Amith wrote:
I would agree that some level of cooperation was necessary to span three systems and develop interstellar travel but not that it precludes you from internal conflict for 900 years, Miss Riordan.

Mister Ogunkoya,

I wouldn't have asked for the sources if I wasn't interested in where the information was obtained from.


((One of the specific tribe links refers to and i cant remember the exact words. Once space flight was achieved a period of peace not seen before on pator with no major wars for a period of 900 years etc etc. its 1 am here so ill find it tomorrow they dont make it easy :/ ))

.....
Urthel Drengist
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-08-31 01:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Urthel Drengist
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
The typically anti-establishment capsuleer likes to point out many a time that the Gallente Federation and Amarr Empire like to turn individuals into their own versions of individuals. This is seen as oppressive.

Yet, they forget that when a child is born in the State, they are expected to be Caldari. This has nothing to do with "serve the State', or what have you. They are brought up according to the customs and traditions of the Caldari. If they fail to grow up as a Caldari, they are exiled or worse. The same applies with the Minmatar; if they do not grow up according to their tribe, they are outcasted.

The point I'm trying to make is that every society is "oppressive" in some form or another, but the reality of it is that societies naturally try to make all their subjects the same (what the "same" is varies), as this creates a working and stable living environment for everyone. Observe hedonistic Gallentean societies where there is no enforcement of norms, and resultant crime and unemployment rates. Observe ultra-strict Caldari societies where someone is forced to suicide for not making the cut, and resultant high economic output. The former's dysfunction is the result of no one putting a hard line on what anyone should be doing, while the latter's hyperefficiency is the result of the opposite.

Just because the Caldari State and Minmatar Republic are not involved in the transfiguration of foreign peoples does not mean they are innocent of cultural imperialism. They just do it to their own people, and this is what a Gallentean may define as "tyranny"; someone else trying to tell us what to do. Guess what a Gallentean says when the Federation tells them what to do? Guess what a Caldari says when the State tells them what to do?



The good point you are raising Mr Inhonores is that all of the known political ideas in New Eden currently are trying to make everyone look the same.

The ''bad'' point i find is that you indirectly or directly try to make it look like it is ok. You said it yourself, every society is OPPRESSIVE. that is the truth, capsuleers and baseliners are living under oppressive regimes, one way or another. Now whether they want to change it or not its another matter.

But let's not try to color things differently than they really are, what do you think?

Urthel Drengist

C.E.O and Founder of Drengist Intergalactic Liberal Enterprises Ltd. [L.I.D.E.L ] 
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#43 - 2012-08-31 01:16:32 UTC
A certain level of 'oppression' is acceptable if you want a stable and prosperous society.

Take education. Mass educational facilities demand certain levels of conformity and every subject is steeped in the dominant culture of that society. Even if educators don't take it upon themselves to impose social norms on the students, a student that speaks, dresses, or behaves in an 'odd' manner can face isolation or ridicule from their peers.

However, the other option is no mass education, which is disastrous if you want anything beyond an agrarian level of technology.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#44 - 2012-08-31 02:20:27 UTC
I am replying to Saede's outstanding post.

Culturally, we have indeed lost a tremendous amount of what we once were, and to have any false notions about reconnecting and recovering that which we have no record of is noble, but wasted effort. We are still here, we are still Minmatar, and we must move forward. I am not saying that we should stop pushing for freedom for our kin, but we must define ourselves from this point forward, not back.

We have become a bloodthirsty people, and understandably so; we suffered, and indeed, many of us continue to suffer to this day. But the Minmatar people are so much more than that, so much more than warriors and war, and we owe it to ourselves and to our descendants to build our world, not burn it. Our religion, our language, our ways will endure, provided we endure, but if our people starve, or emmigrate, or simply lose faith, due to lack of infrastructure, education, food, and all other necessities of a society, we will continue to lose more of our kin, we will continue to lose more of ourselves.

We are what we are, not what we were. We do our ancestors no honor by destroying ourselves in a quest for vengeance, which nets nothing save further vengeance. Do we lay down arms? Of course not. Do we use a position of advantage, when we hold it, to return to the negotiating table and force favorable terms? Yes. What we have, we must hold, we must cling to tightly. This includes our children and kin, our customs and beliefs, and none of these things can prosper, and grow, in our current environment... unless we wish our culture to be nothing more than a culture of bloodshed, and our children harvesters-and sources-of that blood.

To be Minmatar means many things. It is our love of our kin and Clan, our faith in our spirits and ancestors, and our bravery and skill in battle; it also means posessing the wisdom to know when we need to step back, breathe, and set the gun down and pick up the shovel, to move ahead, instead of looking behind.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Urthel Drengist
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-08-31 02:23:13 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
I am replying to Saede's outstanding post.

Culturally, we have indeed lost a tremendous amount of what we once were, and to have any false notions about reconnecting and recovering that which we have no record of is noble, but wasted effort. We are still here, we are still Minmatar, and we must move forward. I am not saying that we should stop pushing for freedom for our kin, but we must define ourselves from this point forward, not back.

We have become a bloodthirsty people, and understandably so; we suffered, and indeed, many of us continue to suffer to this day. But the Minmatar people are so much more than that, so much more than warriors and war, and we owe it to ourselves and to our descendants to build our world, not burn it. Our religion, our language, our ways will endure, provided we endure, but if our people starve, or emmigrate, or simply lose faith, due to lack of infrastructure, education, food, and all other necessities of a society, we will continue to lose more of our kin, we will continue to lose more of ourselves.

We are what we are, not what we were. We do our ancestors no honor by destroying ourselves in a quest for vengeance, which nets nothing save further vengeance. Do we lay down arms? Of course not. Do we use a position of advantage, when we hold it, to return to the negotiating table and force favorable terms? Yes. What we have, we must hold, we must cling to tightly. This includes our children and kin, our customs and beliefs, and none of these things can prosper, and grow, in our current environment... unless we wish our culture to be nothing more than a culture of bloodshed, and our children harvesters-and sources-of that blood.

To be Minmatar means many things. It is our love of our kin and Clan, our faith in our spirits and ancestors, and our bravery and skill in battle; it also means posessing the wisdom to know when we need to step back, breathe, and set the gun down and pick up the shovel, to move ahead, instead of looking behind.



And that is why i believe Ms Surionen could be a great leader and guide for the Republic....only if she would put much more energy into it we could one day see her in that position... who knows?

I much agree on what has been said by both Ms Riordan and Ms Surionen.

Urthel Drengist

C.E.O and Founder of Drengist Intergalactic Liberal Enterprises Ltd. [L.I.D.E.L ] 
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#46 - 2012-08-31 05:12:47 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:


...The Caldari withdrew from your Federation not because of a sovereignty dispute but because the government kept passing into law legislation that restricted the rights and freedoms of the Caldari while bolstering the power and influence of the Gallente and claiming it was what was best for the majority. Eventually we tired of it and since you refused to let us withdraw quietly and decided to blockade all access to our homeworld and the outer colonies we established, we decided to demonstrate to you the strength of our protest in the only language you couldn't silence with legislation and silver tongues.

The Intaki have and are still going through a similar situation or did you think the Intaki Liberation Front was a coffee club?



Let's be honest, shall we? The two founding members of the Federation found themselves at odds after the Caldari clandestinely established numerous military bases and a system of stargates in order to further their agenda of projecting Caldari (not Federal) power. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and when called out on it complained that the Gallente were attempting to "subdue" them.

Had the situations been reversed the Caldari would have been similarly incensed and likely would have reacted similarly.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-08-31 06:30:06 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

Let's be honest, shall we? The two founding members of the Federation found themselves at odds after the Caldari clandestinely established numerous military bases and a system of stargates in order to further their agenda of projecting Caldari (not Federal) power. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and when called out on it complained that the Gallente were attempting to "subdue" them.

Had the situations been reversed the Caldari would have been similarly incensed and likely would have reacted similarly.

Is being ignorant is a new tendency among tribals?

Each part of the State (mega corporations) can build as many stargates, military bases and grow as much military power, as they see fit.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-08-31 08:46:02 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Let's be honest, shall we? The two founding members of the Federation found themselves at odds after the Caldari clandestinely established numerous military bases and a system of stargates in order to further their agenda of projecting Caldari (not Federal) power. They got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and when called out on it complained that the Gallente were attempting to "subdue" them.


That is quite the simplistic overview on the War of Independence. Wars are bloody and difficult affairs and the State's forefathers would not have chosen to subject themselves to the trials of conflict without some knowledge of the struggle that would lay ahead. War was the only recourse left when all options to dialogue and discourse on a peaceful secession of Caldari populations and territories was exhausted and the Federal government gave the choice of only continued cultural, economic and political subjugation of the Caldari people or violence: the latter was chosen. Colonial expansion outside the control of the Federation was undertaken to ensure the freedom and liberty of Caldari interests from an oppressive and unjust government. They were pursued by civilian and private firms and as such were not as the historical revisionists would suggest and as President Duvailer asserted at the time, military bases to project Caldari power and attack the Federation. This only occurred much later, after the War of Independence was well under way.

Of course, if one asserts that the War of Caldari Independence was unjustified then it would seem to imply:

1. The hundreds of billions of Caldari citizens that undertook the Exodus from the Federation and the millions more that sacrificed their lives for their comrades did so not out of legitimate disagreement with the course the Federation had taken under the Gallentean political majority but instead decided to fight a war for no reason at all.

2. If there was no reason to fight the war, then the Caldari were behaving irrationally because the ideology of liberal democracy as practiced by the Federation is a perfect system that does not give rise to inequality, injustice, populism, political oppression, economic subjugation, cultural degradation or the enrichnment of elite power structures. The Federation has reached the, "End of History" and its values and democracy should then be exported to every corner of New Eden and enlighten every human being irrespective of their own cultural values, traditions and systems of governance.

3. The Amarr and Minmatar are just as irrational as the Caldari for not accepting the standards of the Federation and thus it would require the continued exporting of Federal values in order to educate them in the rational values of liberal democracy and any complaints of, "Subjugation" otherwise if force and violence are used to turn cultural imperialism into actual imperialism are made by peoples and societies who are too ignorant to understand how tyranny and oppression cannot occur in a, "Free, Open and Democratic Society."

Quite the Federalist worldview I suppose.

Anabella Rella wrote:

Had the situations been reversed the Caldari would have been similarly incensed and likely would have reacted similarly.


The situation would never have been reversed because the Caldari would never have created the Federation in the first place.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#49 - 2012-08-31 09:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Horak Thor
To those that have been asking for proof of 900 years of peace prior to Amarrian Slave raids.

"It was during this period of substantial growth that the tribes began to come into conflict with each other. The Krusual and Nefantar in particular were at each others throats, and the other tribes tended to fall on one side or the other. Most of the Brutor tribe supported the Nefantar, but enough supported the Krusual to cause severe internal strife. The Starkmanir were the exception as they remained neutral throughout the conflict. When the tribal wars ended[4] the Minmatar knew nothing but peace until the arrival of the Amarr.

During this period, the Starkmanir Tribe's size, age, and neutrality in the wars, ensured they were a strong voice on Matar. Despite the Sebiestor's critical role in the development of space technology, the Starkmanir maintained the strongest influence among the Minmatar as they entered their Space Age. With the discovery of the Arzad system, and citing increasing population pressures on Matar, the Starkmanir made the fateful decision to leave their homeworld and resettle their tribe on Arzad II, naming it Starkman Prime.[4] The lands of the Eyniletti Plains on Matar were put into the joint ownership of the remaining tribes[5], and with few exceptions, the Starkmanir relocated."

Peace at the start of the space age which was 900 years prior to the start of slaver raids as seen here.

First minmatar space ship launched 21413AD
First slaver raids 22355AD
= 942 years of peace

If you would like to check for yourselves here are the historical records.

Timeline http://community.eveonline.com/races/minmatar_timeline.asp
Peace reference http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Starkmanir ((look under the pre contact header))

As you can see the aggressive combat driven Minmatar you see today are a direct cause of the desperation to free the rest of our brothers, the Amarr pushed us to this. It matters not how peaceful an animal is once backed into a corner there is no other stage in its existence that it will be as dangerous.

Why so desperate?

"While the Minmatar Republic is the official state, only a quarter of all Minmatar are part of it. The largest proportion, almost a third, are enslaved within the huge Amarr Empire, while a fifth resides within the Gallente Federation"

Since we love references this is taken from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar#Vherokior

Being Brutor myself this desperation is made even more dire due to.

"The Amarr enslaved the Brutor in droves, as due to their physical strength they were ideal for manual labor. A considerable portion of the tribe is still enslaved within the Amarr Empire."

Taken from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Brutor_tribe

I have been accused repeatedly of blaming the Amarr for all the Minmatar's problems, for not being able to put the past behind me. I hope you can see now that there is no past to put behind me, it is an ongoing and current event , the sheer ammount of Minmatar enslaved ensures that, I am a desperate man willing to resort to desperate measures to secure the freedom of my people.

Look down on us for the "squalor" we live in look down on us for being "savage tribal's". but whilst you do this look upon the devastation you yourself's wrought upon a peacful people in the apex of our golden age.

We were not savage's needing God's salvation, we were not doomed to a planet of limited resources in a constant state of war fueled by warlord's, we were not in a stagnated bronze age state due to low intelligence. We were a burgeoning empire quickly expanding into space, with nearly a millenia of continued peace behind us and a level of mechanical expertise no one has ever mastered.

If there is a God, your people are doomed to hell for the Sin you brought down upon hundreds of billions of people over the millenia of darkness endured by my people at your hands.

.....
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#50 - 2012-08-31 11:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Horak Thor
Amaki Mai wrote:

The only slaves you can reclaim by force are those within the lawless warzone. The very terms of the fighting ensure that the regular Navy can't take part in it and so, therefore, isn't vulnerable to be targeted. Captain Riordan paints a very bleak picture of the fate of those you DO manage to capture and return to the Republic and I'm sure that picture is part of the reason that the Ammatar Mandate didn't do what you expected when their leaders turned traitor.


I was actually surprised beyond belief when the Ammatar turned out to be semi loyal in the end. i had zero expectations of the Ammatar i don't see why you would believe me privy to information that no one in the entire republic had but i suppose thats a complement. the return of the Nefantar in whatever state they may be is a blessing beyond any i could have hoped for, The Starkmanir to return on the same day? one of the happiest day's of my existence.

Most Nefantar are scared of coming back and rightfully so they face prejudice and anger from alot of people, but they can also look forward to the joy of billions, the seven tribes reunited is something no one ever believed possible again.

As for conditions in the republic, they are rapidly improving, they are not where we want them to be but they are getting better. that is all we can do strive for a better existence, hopefully we will strive for that with all our Matari kindred side by side, you Amarr sadly in your ignorance stand in our way.

.....
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#51 - 2012-08-31 11:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ava Starfire
To Horak, thank you. We did indeed have peace before the Amarr came. May the Spirits provide the guidance to enable us to do so again.

As for "conditions improving", I suppose I have not been fortunate enough to see this. I hope they are, somewhere. Overall, well said, brother... even if parts of it are looking back. It is a good example of remembering where we are from. That's good. Being wholly defined by that past is when the problems can come.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#52 - 2012-08-31 12:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bataav
Malcolm Khross wrote:
...the Intaki Liberation Front...

I'll take that cue...

Emile Belfleur wrote:
As for your belief in the existence of any such thing as "silent minorities" in the Federation, that only makes it abundantly clear to me that you've never actually lived here. If the minorities are silent, where do all the lobbyists, activists and beggars come from, who our elected representatives are forced to deal with on a daily basis? If the minorities were silent, perhaps our senators would actually be able to do their jobs, undisturbed by a hundred thousand non-elected voices screaming in their ears. Although, if the ILF represent a silent minority in your view, perhaps we just disagree on the definition of "silence".

Oh, those minorities most definately exist, but the Federation has failed in its attempts to silence them completely.

The Federation has chosen both oppression and neglect as its tools to this end.

Through oppressive forced exile, silence was imposed upon those minorities, as it swept criticism and disquiet away. Hiding it beyond national borders from where the Federation hoped it could no longer be heard. But we hear them today.

Through fear, silence was imposed as those who witnessed what the Federation was prepared inflict, upon those who spoke out against them, held their tongues. But we are speaking with them today.

Through neglect, silence was imposed upon the surviving Intaki colonists on Reschard V, who were allowed to suffer and die, while Federation apathy resulted in delays and inaction. But we support them today.

Through the denial of voting rights, silence was imposed as legal "lobbyists, activists and beggars" were rendered mute and impotent against Federal oversight, despite the protestations of their elected representatives. But we are campaigning with them today.

Perhaps if the Federation did not attempt to censor or ignore its minority groups they would not be considered so silent that people do not know they are there.

Bataav

Mahesha | Intaki Liberation Front & Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#53 - 2012-08-31 13:36:56 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:

I have been accused repeatedly of blaming the Amarr for all the Minmatar's problems, for not being able to put the past behind me. I hope you can see now that there is no past to put behind me, it is an ongoing and current event , the sheer ammount of Minmatar enslaved ensures that, I am a desperate man willing to resort to desperate measures to secure the freedom of my people.

To what end and purpose? We attribute freedom as this fundamental human right, more important then any other, and I completely object to that notion. Freedom is a higher order need, it is a luxury to be pursued when the basic physiological needs are met. Things like clean air, water, and food, a safe place to sleep, these are the really basic needs. The republic is doing its utmost to 'free' slaves. That's great, they're free to starve to death. Not to mention the fact that a lot of those slaves you free belong to the Amarrian faith, and when rescued are subject to intense social pressure to convert to the minmatar spirituality, morality, and belief systems, and if they don't then they end up in the worst conditions of all, where merely making known their religion could result in their deaths.

Many matari say that these people are kin, and should be taught of their heritage, and if that is done, then they will all simply join matari culture and be productive members of society. But that clearly not the case, these people are living in slums or refugee camps, sleeping in alleys and doorways, and the only way for them to escape is to throw away their entire culture heritage and embrace, what is to them, ancient history. You may not agree with the Amarr kidnapping and indoctrinating people in their religion, but like it or hate it, the damage is done, and the damage has been done for a long, long time. These people have 800 years of their own history, their own customs and traditions. What gives you any more right to take that away from them then it gave the Amarrians when they became slaves in the first place. These people are not first generation slaves by and large. They have been slaves for a long, long time. Most don't even consider themselves minmatar except by ancestry.

The Amarrians wanted to rescue people from a life of sin and savagery, they kidnapped them and indoctrinated them in their religion and tried to wipe out their cultural heritage using fear, threats, and physical violence.

The Minmatar want to rescue people from a life of toil and slavery, they kidnap them and indoctrinate them in their beliefs and attempt to wipe out their cultural heritage using fear, threats, and physical violence.

It is exactly the same.

And to those who think that the Minmatar people are somehow better, and it is the Amarrians who are wholly responsible for the current situation, let me remind you whose fleet it was that attacked Mekhios and broke a peace of 100 years.

No one is truly innocent. No one is truly free.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-08-31 14:03:17 UTC
Mister Thor,

First let me thank you for providing a clear set of resources and references from which you have obtained your information.

Horak Thor wrote:

I have been accused repeatedly of blaming the Amarr for all the Minmatar's problems, for not being able to put the past behind me. I hope you can see now that there is no past to put behind me, it is an ongoing and current event , the sheer ammount of Minmatar enslaved ensures that, I am a desperate man willing to resort to desperate measures to secure the freedom of my people.


I have never, nor will I ever, deny that the Amarr are at least in part responsible for what has become of the Minmatar people. I would reiterate that we are not entirely at fault, as the Minmatar have made their own decisions and are facing the consequences of those decisions as well.

Horak Thor wrote:
We were not savage's needing God's salvation, we were not doomed to a planet of limited resources in a constant state of war fueled by warlord's, we were not in a stagnated bronze age state due to low intelligence. We were a burgeoning empire quickly expanding into space, with nearly a millenia of continued peace behind us and a level of mechanical expertise no one has ever mastered.

If there is a God, your people are doomed to hell for the Sin you brought down upon hundreds of billions of people over the millenia of darkness endured by my people at your hands.


It is here that we primarily disagree, though I believe you probably already knew that. Savages or not, everyone is in need of God's salvation and the level of civilization and technology among a people does not change that. I would also suggest that anyone believing you to be naught more than unintelligent savages has not really paid significant attention to you as a people.

My last point of contention is on your final assertion. While we would agree that a great many sins and evils have been committed by the Empire and the Amarr in the name of our God and our religion, God does not condemn an entire people for their past sins just as he does not condemn an entire people for their rebellion against him. All are offered the chance to seek penance and redemption and only when that offer is rejected or ignored have they submitted themselves to judgment. The Amarr that betray their place of righteousness and turn from the truth and integrity of our divine purpose will face God's judgment but we are not condemned as a people.

We are all in need of God's salvation and should the angels bearing his message turn from their charge then we are the most pitiable and wretched of all creation.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#55 - 2012-08-31 15:14:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Horak Thor
Saede Riordan wrote:


The Amarrians wanted to rescue people from a life of sin and savagery, they kidnapped them and indoctrinated them in their religion and tried to wipe out their cultural heritage using fear, threats, and physical violence.

The Minmatar want to rescue people from a life of toil and slavery, they kidnap them and indoctrinate them in their beliefs and attempt to wipe out their cultural heritage using fear, threats, and physical violence.

It is exactly the same.


I was asked for proof regarding my claims, would you care to offer the same?
I can offer you this, the Minmatar have Ammarian temples on every world, they are not illegal, they are not exactly welcomed with open arms but they are tolerated, every now and then you hear of one being burned down maybe, and people being killed such as the case with the krusual tribe incident i forget the name sorry.
However the difference being this is not state commited criminal acts, it is a small percentage of people acting illegally.

Are there any Legal Minmatar sanctioned religious buildings in Amarrian space? the answer is a resounding No.
That is the difference.

Saede Riordan wrote:

And to those who think that the Minmatar people are somehow better, and it is the Amarrians who are wholly responsible for the current situation, let me remind you whose fleet it was that attacked Mekhios and broke a peace of 100 years.

No one is truly innocent. No one is truly free.


100 years of failed political manouvering to reclaim our brethren back from your grip.
It was a rash act yes, but as i stated above in my other post, the reasons are clear.

One of the main differences between our two positions? We have never nor has the aim ever been to enslave any of your people. We are Counteracting an act commited against us and attempting to right it.

.....
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#56 - 2012-08-31 15:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Diana Kim wrote:

Is being ignorant is a new tendency among tribals?

Each part of the State (mega corporations) can build as many stargates, military bases and grow as much military power, as they see fit.



Is being a bigoted, rude, obnoxious ass a new Hethite tendency?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#57 - 2012-08-31 15:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Emile Belfleur
Bataav wrote:
Through oppressive forced exile, silence was imposed upon those minorities, as it swept criticism and disquiet away. Hiding it beyond national borders from where the Federation hoped it could no longer be heard. But we hear them today.


Oh, I do agree that was an extraordinarily poor decision. Here we had a whole unsettled region, right on our borders, filled with valuable resources. And instead of opening it for proper settlement and development, as we should have done, we instead made the moronic decision to use it - all of it - as a reservation for self-professed enemies of the Federation. We've allowed them to live practically within our borders, when what we should have done is to toss them after the Caldari. And they've spent their time since then consorting with criminals and peddling narcotics to misguided youth, to the detriment of the entire Federation. It's a decision I would still personally like to see reversed.

Using both the Caldari War and the Syndicate as examples of Federal oppression demonstrates an interesting case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". When the Federation tries to keep malcontents in, it's oppressive. When it tries to toss malcontents out, it's oppressive. Go figure.

Quote:
Through fear, silence was imposed as those who witnessed what the Federation was prepared inflict, upon those who spoke out against them, held their tongues. But we are speaking with them today.


It seems to me that those who wanted to speak out against it did so quite vocally. If they hadn't, there wouldn't be a Syndicate, or a Mordu's Legion.

Quote:
Through neglect, silence was imposed upon the surviving Intaki colonists on Reschard V, who were allowed to suffer and die, while Federation apathy resulted in delays and inaction. But we support them today.


The response time should have been much quicker, I agree. But in order to be quicker, it would still have to rely in large part on the mobilization of local forces. Now, I'm not sure exactly how large a proportion of Placid-based search-and-rescue and disaster relief teams are made up of and run by Intaki, but I would guess the number is considerable. If not, it certainly should be!

If you want to place blame at the Federal level, however, that's perfectly fair. In that case, responsibility for the failure belongs to Suoro Foiritan, who was president at the time. And should I remind you which ethnic group he belongs to?

In short, the sluggishness in responding to the Reschard disaster seems to have been at least as much an Intaki issue as a Gallente one. At least.

Quote:
Through the denial of voting rights, silence was imposed as legal "lobbyists, activists and beggars" were rendered mute and impotent against Federal oversight, despite the protestations of their elected representatives. But we are campaigning with them today.


That decision was also poor, I agree. I do not agree, however, that it was a scheme to silence an ethnic minority. You'll note that the representatives from my own native region, Solitude, were among the ones to oppose the passing of this bill. Solitude is overwhelmingly ethnic Gallente in composition, and known as quite culturally conservative in that regard. I would also note that the President who wrote this into law was again Foiritan, himself a member of the same minority group you imply this bill was intended to oppress or silence. The conflict line in this issue was between center and periphery, not between Gallente and Intaki.

Quote:
Perhaps if the Federation did not attempt to censor or ignore its minority groups they would not be considered so silent that people do not know they are there.


I can assure you, there are no Gallente who do not know that the Intaki are here. We are perfectly aware of it - painfully aware of it, sometimes. Still, we have agreed to be your partners, and we abide by that agreement. Not only do you have a place around the table, you have several. You've even had the seat at the head of the table, on occasion. The Federal bureaucracy is full of Intaki. The diplomatic corps (which incidentally must logically be assumed to be the mouthpiece of any international cultural imperialism we supposedly engage in) - full of Intaki. The list goes on. You are represented, and abundantly so. If you don't feel those representatives serve your interests well, you should work to replace them with others who can. The onus is on you.

In closing, let me be perfectly clear, here - the day you Intaki secessionists cease being a minority within your own minority, I fully support your right to leave the Federation and to take Placid with you. Just don't complain if the rest of us lock the door behind you when you do.
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#58 - 2012-08-31 15:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Horak Thor
Azdan Amith wrote:


I have never, nor will I ever, deny that the Amarr are at least in part responsible for what has become of the Minmatar people. I would reiterate that we are not entirely at fault, as the Minmatar have made their own decisions and are facing the consequences of those decisions as well.


Yes you have always taken some responsibilty, enough? maybe not but its a step in the right direction.

Azdan Amith wrote:

It is here that we primarily disagree, though I believe you probably already knew that. Savages or not, everyone is in need of God's salvation and the level of civilization and technology among a people does not change that. I would also suggest that anyone believing you to be naught more than unintelligent savages has not really paid significant attention to you as a people.

My last point of contention is on your final assertion. While we would agree that a great many sins and evils have been committed by the Empire and the Amarr in the name of our God and our religion, God does not condemn an entire people for their past sins just as he does not condemn an entire people for their rebellion against him. All are offered the chance to seek penance and redemption and only when that offer is rejected or ignored have they submitted themselves to judgment. The Amarr that betray their place of righteousness and turn from the truth and integrity of our divine purpose will face God's judgment but we are not condemned as a people.


You are correct in some respect's, The Holder of Starkman prime Arzad hamri shines as an example however he was murdered by your people for being too kind to the Minmatar.
However before we get off topic or start another series of finger pointing jibes i would say this.

If the Amarrian empire were to allow every Minmatar in Amarrian space to vote on which course of action they would wish, to be free'd and to return to the republic or to remain where they are, i for one would be happy.
Taking people against there will and returning them to the republic when they do not wish to be here is equally bad for the republic as it is for them. but the fact is there are many in the empire that dream of being returned to republic space. i know this because i was one of them.

If they were given this choice we could finish this war, and a religious man must know the importance of free will. how can one be with God if he has not chosen such a fate. if he has not been given the choice how can you know he is worthy of redemption?

.....
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#59 - 2012-08-31 15:32:34 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


That is quite the simplistic overview on the War of Independence.


Of course it is. I didn't want to write a wall of text explaining a conflict that we all understand was fought for many different reasons. I just distilled it down to the essence of what immediately precipitated it in the interest of brevity for this medium.

Anabella Rella wrote:

Had the situations been reversed the Caldari would have been similarly incensed and likely would have reacted similarly.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

The situation would never have been reversed because the Caldari would never have created the Federation in the first place.


Oh really? Yet you were founding members of the Federation along with the Gallente. How do you explain that then?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-08-31 15:38:28 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:

I can offer you this, the Minmatar have Ammarian temples on every world, they are not illegal, they are not exactly welcomed with open arms but they are tolerated, every now and then you hear of one being burned down maybe, and people being killed such as the case with the krusual tribe incident i forget the name sorry.
However the difference being this is not state commited criminal acts, it is a small percentage of people acting illegally.

Are there any Legal Minmatar sanctioned religious buildings in Amarrian space? the answer is a resounding No.
That is the difference.


Not quite.

The point Miss Riordan is making is that you are dragging people away from the only culture, heritage and environment they've ever known simply because you believe they don't belong there. The presence of Amarr temples in Minmatar worlds doesn't negate the truth of this statement.

Horak Thor wrote:
100 years of failed political manouvering to reclaim our brethren back from your grip.
It was a rash act yes, but as i stated above in my other post, the reasons are clear.

One of the main differences between our two positions? We have never nor has the aim ever been to enslave any of your people. We are Counteracting an act commited against us and attempting to right it.


A quick clarification, Miss Riordan isn't Amarr nor is she a citizen or loyal of the Empire.

The primary difference between us isn't the enslavement aspect, that's simply the aspect that so many choose to focus on. The difference is what we perceive to be best for the individuals involved. The truth is that we are both guilty of tearing people away from their families, friends and culture, we're both guilty of impressing our own values, beliefs and traditions onto those we whisk away and we are both adamant in our positions. Our positions are the difference.

The simple truth is that many who live in slavery in the Empire still enjoy a standard of living well above the impoverished in the Federation, the Disassociated in the State and the numerous refugees in the Republic. You believe you are helping them become free but you are robbing them of so much more than you are giving them, both temporally and eternally. This is not meant as an insult against you but a simple matter of perspective and how ours differ from one another.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution