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Skiff, what happened to the +2 warp strength bonus?

Author
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#1 - 2012-08-29 17:19:31 UTC
While the topic is still a matter of debate for many people, I have a generally positive opinion of the mining barge/exhumer changes.

The solo vs fleet mining tradeoffs between the retriever/mack and covetor/hulk make for a really meaningful choice depending on your circumstances.

However, the poor procurer/skiff still seems a little left out.

While it is, indeed, basically ungankable in high sec (or rather, it is completely unprofitable to gank) that trait alone does not seem to make up for its lack of yield and cargo.

What seems odd is that they removed the original +2 warp strength bonus from the ship. While warp strength in high isn't really needed at all, since you are relying on your massive tank to keep you alive while Concord does its job... adding that back in would breathe new life into the procurer/skiff: Solo low/null/wh mining. With that massive tank, you'd be able generally survive against the stronger rats in those belts. In addition, if you were to be attacked by a player pirate, you would generally be able to tank their damage and warp out even if they brought one or two points.

Of course the low slots could be fitted with additional stabs if you wanted to be extra safe...or you could fit them for yield and pray your attackers don't bring more than 2 points.

This would preserve dynamic fitting choices with the procurer/skiff while further emphasizing their stated role as a "Super tanky high-risk mining ship". After all, what good is all that tank outside of high if it is easily pointed and worn down.


And of course...ultimately it would be an inferior choice to an orca boosted hulk protected by combat ships...but it might encourage more solo industrialists to wander into low/null/whs as they would have a fighting chance to escape and still get a decent yield. On the flip side, pirates who are specifically skiff hunting might know to fit extra points and equip for longer, sustained DPS rather than high-alpha. They too would have legitimate chance against an unwary or ill-prepared miner.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2 - 2012-08-29 17:27:17 UTC
Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#3 - 2012-08-29 17:32:21 UTC
I'm not suggesting the skiff be able to fight back outside of high, just have a reasonable chance of fleeing.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4 - 2012-08-29 17:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
I don't consider 5 points to be a 'reasonable chance'.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#5 - 2012-08-29 17:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinstar Colton
Most pirates carry 1-2 points solo. Any more and they give up valueble mid slots that could be used for shields, webs, cap boosters etc. A pirate must go out of their way and slightly gimp their normal PVP ability to fit the additional points...but doing so will let them to trap and burn down a high yield skiff.

A skiff pilot who is paranoid about pirates packing 3+ points can sacrifice yield for STABS, thus allowing them escape in those situations.

A really hardcore pirate can really gimp their PVP fit and carry 5 points to ensure a skiff doesn't get away no matter what. Even then they still run the risk that the skiff is just bait and they are suddenly fighting another combat ship that isn't overburdned with carrying 3 point modules.

All in all, if a solo pirate warps to a solo skiff, the outcome of that encounter is not instantly known by either party unless they know each other's fitting. The choice of fitting on both sides is not 100% clear.

In other words: Dynamic and uncertain combat = healthy combat. If the skiffs always got away, pirates wouldn't bother, and if the pirates always won, skiffs wouldn't try in the first place. At the moment, with no warp strength bonus, a skiff would have to sacrifice their yield to get, at most +2 strength, that a pirate could easily overcome with just one extra point module. Since fitting two STABs decreases the reward of mining outside of high sec while not greatly decreasing the risk, you don't see skiff/procurer pilots even trying.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6 - 2012-08-29 18:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
I can't agree with your logic. A pirate would have to waste all their midslots AND get in a 10km range (probably without a prop mod) before the miner warps off (probably already aligned) just to have a chance of pointing him. The only other option would be to be in a gang of 3-5 guys... to take on one crappy mining boat.

You're saying it's fair to handicap pirates like this because it gives the miners a fair chance, but it's not fair to force miners to sacrifice their precious yield to ensure their own safety.
Mutant Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-08-29 18:40:16 UTC
Or you could simply be competent and watch your scanner as well as Local. Carebears always want things spoon fed to them, I swear. Roll
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#8 - 2012-08-29 18:58:10 UTC
I do that when I mine in my Retriever in low sec. I'm not asking for handouts. I'm just looking at the new mining roles and wondering if the Skiff's could be improved since they are (from what I've seen) greatly underused compared to the mack/hulk (and barge equivalents)

The fact that I choose a retriever over a procurer for mining in low because the procurer is JUST as vulnerable to player pirates as the retriever, but the retriever holds much more ore and thus is the superior choice. That seems wrong given the procurer's stated goal of being the 'tanky high-risk mining ship' .





In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#9 - 2012-08-29 19:11:30 UTC
Pinstar Colton wrote:
'tanky high-risk mining ship'

Solo mining in lowsec isn't 'high-risk'. It's just plain dumb.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#10 - 2012-08-29 21:13:05 UTC
OK, if you want to mine in low sec please go for it, I build procurer's and and quite happy to sell you oneSmile, listen I have been all over eve lived every where, don't bother with low sec, if you want high end ores then join a null bear corp, otherwise stick warp stabs in lows, pucker up cheeks, and hope you are fast enough to get out with the pitiful rooker of ore.Lol
William Walker
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#11 - 2012-08-30 06:51:45 UTC
Pinstar Colton wrote:
While the topic is still a matter of debate for many people


Stopped reading there. The skiff has great EHP now and is commonly used nowadays to bait people. The +2 warp strength is not necessary anymore. If you are solo in a skiff in lowsec you should be paying attention, if you are solo in a skiff in nullsec you should have friends.

ヽ(⌒∇⌒)ノ へ(゜∇、°)へ (◕‿◕✿)

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#12 - 2012-08-30 13:07:37 UTC
If you want to run away you have plenty slots to fit Warp Core Stabilizers and ecm...
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-08-30 15:05:01 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s.


[Skiff, L4]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gist B-Type EM Ward Field
Gist B-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Strip Miner I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hammerhead II x5

The Skiff can already do L4s if you throw enough money at it. Tank is 561 DPS "omni" and it pushes out 220 DPS which is on par with drakes so in theory it ought to be able to do most L4s. Aggro will be a pain to get given that it has to run into stuff to get it, but at least the thing pushes 250m/s at top speed so rat-ramming won't take as long as in a dominix without guns, painters, or a speed booster. Presuming EFT's reporting the correct numbers. For some reason I thought the Skiff's top speed was only 90m/s, but EVE-Mon corroborates it so...
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#14 - 2012-08-30 15:23:43 UTC
Cool. If they had +2 warp strength, you wouldn't even have to worry about drones and frigates using warp disruptors.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-08-30 17:45:26 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s.


[Skiff, L4]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gist B-Type EM Ward Field
Gist B-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Strip Miner I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hammerhead II x5

The Skiff can already do L4s if you throw enough money at it. Tank is 561 DPS "omni" and it pushes out 220 DPS which is on par with drakes so in theory it ought to be able to do most L4s. Aggro will be a pain to get given that it has to run into stuff to get it, but at least the thing pushes 250m/s at top speed so rat-ramming won't take as long as in a dominix without guns, painters, or a speed booster. Presuming EFT's reporting the correct numbers. For some reason I thought the Skiff's top speed was only 90m/s, but EVE-Mon corroborates it so...


Couldn't you throw a NOS or a TP on there to get aggro?
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#16 - 2012-08-30 22:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
I think it needs the +2 warp strength back.

In highsec, you can tank the mack well enough to not get ganked, and the mack is the better miner, so there's not really a reason to use the skiff.

In low, null, or WH space, if the skiff's extra EHP is about as useful as it would be on an iteron...which is to say, with only drones for offensive capability, it will still die to a marauding frigate, albeit more slowly. The mack can also tank most belt rats long enough for the drones to kill them, so again, no reason to use the skiff.

thhief ghabmoef

Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-08-31 02:04:48 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Shereza wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Yeah they should probably have a larger drone bay and some damage bonuses too. Maybe you could use them for running level 4s.


[Skiff, L4]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Gist B-Type EM Ward Field
Gist B-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Strip Miner I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hammerhead II x5

The Skiff can already do L4s if you throw enough money at it. Tank is 561 DPS "omni" and it pushes out 220 DPS which is on par with drakes so in theory it ought to be able to do most L4s. Aggro will be a pain to get given that it has to run into stuff to get it, but at least the thing pushes 250m/s at top speed so rat-ramming won't take as long as in a dominix without guns, painters, or a speed booster. Presuming EFT's reporting the correct numbers. For some reason I thought the Skiff's top speed was only 90m/s, but EVE-Mon corroborates it so...


Couldn't you throw a NOS or a TP on there to get aggro?


Target painters use mid-slots and would weaken the tank. Fitting somewhat better hardeners and going for rat-specific hardeners would possibly free up a mid-slot for one or to use an afterburner to go faster (if it has the grid, not sure0, but in the current setup a painter wouldn't work. Speaking of the power grid it's too low to allow any but small vampires, and with their range being so short you've probably already aggro'd the NPCs by getting that close.

A painter might be workable, but the high slot is most likely best left for a strip miner so you can get some ore while your drones nuke other stuff. You've got a 15km3 ore bay, you might as well use it, and fitting mining drones would lower your DPS while a strip miner wouldn't. Well, it wouldn't lower your DPS unless you want to fit a smartbomb in that high slot, but that's rather discommended.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#18 - 2012-08-31 04:17:20 UTC
Shereza wrote:
A painter might be workable, but the high slot is most likely best left for a strip miner so you can get some ore while your drones nuke other stuff. You've got a 15km3 ore bay, you might as well use it, and fitting mining drones would lower your DPS while a strip miner wouldn't. Well, it wouldn't lower your DPS unless you want to fit a smartbomb in that high slot, but that's rather discommended.


Pfft. I'm putting a smart bomb on mine. Why do I need a mining laser when I can just steal other people's ore after I gank them in my uberskiff?
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-08-31 09:14:03 UTC
Mutant Caldari wrote:
Or you could simply be competent and watch your scanner as well as Local. Carebears always want things spoon fed to them, I swear. Roll

I don't remember local being all that useful in wh's.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-08-31 10:24:31 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Mutant Caldari wrote:
Or you could simply be competent and watch your scanner as well as Local. Carebears always want things spoon fed to them, I swear. Roll

I don't remember local being all that useful in wh's.

if youre mining in a wh youre doing it wrong.
if you cant use dscan to stay alive in whs then youre doing it VERY wrong.

There is no Bob.

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