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Caldari (mostly) Mission Frigate: Condor vs. Kestrel
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Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-08-27 23:04:10 UTC
Relatively new player, have been running missions and midsec ratting in the Condor I got from the rookie training agents. Generally felt it was a pretty good ship for a freebie. Finally got my arse shot out from under me trying to be clever in 0.4 space without the right equipment.

So, I skimmed some threads on Caldari frigates and bought a Kestrel.

Thing is: I think the Condor was a better ship. More cap, more speed, more mid slots, more targets, comparable missile bonus, comparable CPU and PG. (In fact I could swear I was able to fit more in the Condor, which doesn't make sense and I didn't save the fit, but I'm pretty sure I had 3 malkuth missile turrents and a salv in the condor which I can't seem to do in the kessie and maintain the same shield tank. Obvs I've done something idfferent but I can't figure what).

I just figured out that the condor got rebalanced in the latest rev. Seems so good now that I feel a chump for paying the extra for the kestrel.

What, other than cargo capacity, am I missing here?

thanks to the assembled cognoscenti,
Raz
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#2 - 2012-08-27 23:30:17 UTC
Yeah as you guessed, the Condor has been rebalanced recently and got a whole load of new slots and fittings, however the Kestrel is also on its way to being balanced (here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=144693&find=unread) at which point it will be better than a Condor for missions because of its general damage bonus vs the Condors kinetic specific bonus, also more cap/tank/fitting/extra launcher.

Even the Kestrel in its current iteration is a pretty good mission runner, the new Condor might be able to compete with it a little but it's still an excellent mission boat, the first Kestrel I got I used for L1s, The Sisters of Eve Arc and abit of L2s and never lost it. Use an AB + Small Shield Booster + Cap recharger in the mids and 4 standard launcher, the lows might need fitting mods to make up for lack of skills.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#3 - 2012-08-27 23:32:29 UTC
Kestrel has 4 launchers to the Condor's 3.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2012-08-27 23:34:37 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Kestrel has 4 launchers to the Condor's 3.


IIRC the Kestrel has 4 launchers and a 10% damage bonus to the Condor's superior speed, superior fittings, 3 launchers, and 5% damage bonus. The real question is if you'll actually be able to capitalize on it. I haven't looked at a mission kestrel in years so I don't know the answer to this.

My gut says go for the Condor - but that could be because I really like the Condor. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-08-27 23:34:47 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Kestrel has 4 launchers to the Condor's 3.


Rebalanced condor has 4. This info doesn't seem to have made it into evelopedia yet. I was going a bit nuts thinking I'd just been hallucinating for that first week.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-08-27 23:37:16 UTC
if i were you i'd just get into a caracal asap and run lvl2s until you can fly a drake properly. if you intend to continue flying missions that is.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#7 - 2012-08-27 23:37:36 UTC
Erasmas Isimazu wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Kestrel has 4 launchers to the Condor's 3.


Rebalanced condor has 4. This info doesn't seem to have made it into evelopedia yet. I was going a bit nuts thinking I'd just been hallucinating for that first week.


I'm... pretty sure that it has 3 launchers. I'm going to look really stupid if I'm fitting 3 launchers to my PVP Condors for a freaking nos that barely gets used.

Can you post a SS of the Condor with 4 launchers?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#8 - 2012-08-27 23:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Erasmas Isimazu wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Kestrel has 4 launchers to the Condor's 3.


Rebalanced condor has 4. This info doesn't seem to have made it into evelopedia yet. I was going a bit nuts thinking I'd just been hallucinating for that first week.


In-game show-info window shows 3 launchers on the Condor. Are you sure?

My EFT warrior skills shows the following with T2 mods and all Vs:

Kestrel: 170 DPS, 896m/s 30DPS tank, 1700 EHP
Condor: 128 DPS, 1238m/s, 38DPS tank, 3564 EHP

When running missions it is important to remember that if you're not sliding into the station with hull damage, you have too much tank (slight exaggeration). More damage means faster missions. Extra tank means that you have wasted slots that could have been used to kill things faster.
Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-08-27 23:43:04 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Erasmas Isimazu wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Kestrel has 4 launchers to the Condor's 3.


Rebalanced condor has 4. This info doesn't seem to have made it into evelopedia yet. I was going a bit nuts thinking I'd just been hallucinating for that first week.


I'm... pretty sure that it has 3 launchers. I'm going to look really stupid if I'm fitting 3 launchers to my PVP Condors for a freaking nos that barely gets used.

Can you post a SS of the Condor with 4 launchers?

-Liang


eeep, I was conflating high slots and launchers. Sloppy newb thinking, i apologize. However, the evelopedia as of today still shows only 3 high slots for the condor which had me confused as heck until I went and looked at the info entry in-game.
Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-08-27 23:43:45 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
if i were you i'd just get into a caracal asap and run lvl2s until you can fly a drake properly. if you intend to continue flying missions that is.


Caracal is the planned upgrade, just want to build my skills a bit more.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#11 - 2012-08-27 23:45:30 UTC


Daniel Plain wrote:
if i were you i'd just get into a caracal asap and run lvl2s until you can fly a drake properly. if you intend to continue flying missions that is.


This is good advice. Train Connections and Social to III, run a single level 1 mission and then go do level 2s with a Caracal. Train for the DRAEK and run level 3s. Then you can either focus on heavy missiles and get a Tengu for level 4s, or (my recommendation) train for a Raven.

Or you can realise that guns are better for just about everything and stop training missiles.
Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-08-27 23:46:22 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Erasmas Isimazu wrote:
[quote=Paikis]Kestrel has 4 launchers to the Condor's 3.


Rebalanced condor has 4. This info doesn't seem to have made it into evelopedia yet. I was going a bit nuts thinking I'd just been hallucinating for that first week.


In-game show-info window shows 3 launchers on the Condor. Are you sure?

You are right, i was conflating hi's and launchers. However, evelopedia still shows 3 hi's in a condor as of today, which is part of what threw me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2012-08-27 23:49:10 UTC
Paikis wrote:


Daniel Plain wrote:
if i were you i'd just get into a caracal asap and run lvl2s until you can fly a drake properly. if you intend to continue flying missions that is.


This is good advice. Train Connections and Social to III, run a single level 1 mission and then go do level 2s with a Caracal. Train for the DRAEK and run level 3s. Then you can either focus on heavy missiles and get a Tengu for level 4s, or (my recommendation) train for a Raven.

Or you can realise that guns are better for just about everything and stop training missiles.


Train lasers and disappear into WH space. I <3 lasers.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-08-27 23:51:31 UTC
Hey, I got a like?! I should just go to bed NOW, it aint' gonna get better.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#15 - 2012-08-27 23:52:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Or you can realise that guns are better for just about everything and stop training missiles.


Train lasers and disappear into WH space. I <3 lasers.

-Liang


This person speaks truth. Don't believe the hype, Lasers are better than projectiles!
Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-08-28 00:45:20 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Yeah as you guessed, the Condor has been rebalanced recently and got a whole load of new slots and fittings, however the Kestrel is also on its way to being balanced (here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=144693&find=unread) at which point it will be better than a Condor for missions because of its general damage bonus vs the Condors kinetic specific bonus, also more cap/tank/fitting/extra launcher.

Even the Kestrel in its current iteration is a pretty good mission runner, the new Condor might be able to compete with it a little but it's still an excellent mission boat, the first Kestrel I got I used for L1s, The Sisters of Eve Arc and abit of L2s and never lost it. Use an AB + Small Shield Booster + Cap recharger in the mids and 4 standard launcher, the lows might need fitting mods to make up for lack of skills.


Thanks for that info on the proposed Kestrel upgrades, it hadn't occured to me to check if more rebals were forthcoming. I don't have a good sense of how change propagates through the game yet. Rebooted kessie looks pretty impressive. (Does it retroactively modify active ships when something like this happens, or only new production?)
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#17 - 2012-08-28 00:59:06 UTC
Modifies existing ships also.
Erasmas Isimazu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-08-28 01:00:36 UTC
Thanks everyone!
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#19 - 2012-08-28 03:19:58 UTC
Lasers are good in WH space because damage selection doesn't matter at all, where else damage projection matters alot because of how sleepers operate so Lasers are just perfect for WHs.

Back to the topic, bottom line is Kestrel > Condor for missions because of extra launcher, Rapid light missile Caracal is good for L2s but honestly it doesn't take long to get into L3s so I would stick with the Kestrel and jump straight into a heavy missile drake, speaking from experience, the Kestrel can do L2s just fine as with the ridiculous range of light missiles combined with an AB allows you to kite everything with ease.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-08-28 07:31:26 UTC
Paikis wrote:


Daniel Plain wrote:
if i were you i'd just get into a caracal asap and run lvl2s until you can fly a drake properly. if you intend to continue flying missions that is.


This is good advice. Train Connections and Social to III, run a single level 1 mission and then go do level 2s with a Caracal. Train for the DRAEK and run level 3s. Then you can either focus on heavy missiles and get a Tengu for level 4s, or (my recommendation) train for a Raven.

Or you can realise that guns are better for just about everything and stop training missiles.


While I respectfully disagree about the missiles being bad, I do have to admit that I tend to use Merlin a LOT these days over missile ships whenever I need something small. Why? Because it's effectively a mini Blarpy, costs a fraction of it, has great ehp, decent speed and hits like a truck. Well, a tiny truck, but still :D

As for weapon types - there really is no "best", despite what popular opinion might be. A properly fitted and flown Oracle will shred things apart same as a Tornado - as long as you don't try to shoot at a frigate while you're flying 500 mps sideways :D
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