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CSM 7 Stupidity

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Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#61 - 2012-09-01 13:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
The spod thing is more aimed at 0.0 mining corps that rent.

They upgrade the IHUB in order to get grav sites spawning every 3 days or when mined out.

Then 75% of the grav site is spodumain - doesn't matter how large a grav site it is, spodzilla is always there.

This is what makes the economics of it ridiculous.

If a PVP corp does the same - rents space and ihubs and pays for upgrades - they get these perfect sanctums which spawn one after another and finish each one in 20 minutes or so.

The spodumain in many of the grav sites will take a small corp of 10-20 people a day or more to mine 2 sites.

Slightly different, eh ?

This auto-nerf seems to be aimed only at miners. No idea what the justification was at the time, but it seems... disparate to say the least.

A lot of this doesn't matter if you're part of a big alliance, but the 75% refinery of course is another auto-nerf aimed at unaffiliated miners. It seems CCP in their wisdom of the past has taken to nerfing the crap out of anyone not part of a large alliance with all that goes with that, instead of the other way around - not that station refineries haven't in the past been a good way of doing things, but as there's no way to tax miners from a POS anyhow, I put to you that that's already a nerf. Not to mention the giant CPU/PG requirements of the refinery.

.
Frying Doom
#62 - 2012-09-01 14:01:38 UTC
Oh I though you were talking about the nerf they were going to do to hi-sec refineries.

But yeah it does seem out of whack that anoms spawn continuously for PvE pilots when miners get the crap end of the stick again.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#63 - 2012-09-01 14:58:17 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Oh I though you were talking about the nerf they were going to do to hi-sec refineries.

But yeah it does seem out of whack that anoms spawn continuously for PvE pilots when miners get the crap end of the stick again.


Exactly my point.

I'd like to go out to a site and mine it with some corp mates and know at least I can make ships from the minerals, and people can support their ships and the corp itself through this activity. Noone is even looking to become "rich" mining. This is an activity, it's not like market shenanigans or high end mineral speculation.

As pointed out earlier, I showed a post where I was making these observations back in 2008.... Now we're just told "another couple years".

.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#64 - 2012-09-02 20:09:31 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The biggest hurdle CCP will face is not so much that the alterations that they do to the system to make it better but that because people have been doing things the old way for so long that they will perceive the new method to be worse.

As to the CSMs role, I think they are heading in the right direction as they become more integrated into the development process, this is both good and very scary.

The current CSM seems to know what will happen if they drop the ball on this but what about the next CSM, if we get more performance artists the CSM will once again become only a PR tool for CCP and we the players will be back to only being heard when we are unsubbing.


Totally agree, but I mean just LOOK at Issler's comments above.

No mention is made of whether it's a large or small mining corp.
No mention is made of whether it's an empire, wormhole, 0.0 or lowsec corp.
No mention is made about the skillpoints of those miners or if they actually DO scan sites down or use a POS refinery.

Instead a stupidass comment is made "my miners say there is no such problem" therefore there must be no such problem.
Rodyas comes up with better logic than that.

This is the kind of dumb politicking and one dimensional linear thinking I'm talking about.

Now take into account that if I run a corp only a couple of jumps into lowsec that allows miners with low SP to join. How do I pay them and still do logistics and perhaps even make a buck on the side?

-25% refinery and a 5% tax means -30% to the newb pilots that might join - not exactly a great start to the profession.

And keep in mind that 5% isn't worth 1) the logistics/risk of moving several peoples ore in lowsec or 2) POS fuel.

Also that if in 0.0 in a rented system your only advantage is that you have high end ores in grav sites - however something like 75% (by m3) of the total ore in the grav site is spodumain. Which you're wonderfully paying the rent/Pos Fuel and risk to mine.

Increasing the number of miners of course (which might be one way of increasing the profit to pay for that POS fuel) increases things like contracts by miners to the corp each day, which then goes into the management of those contract - hopefully fixed in the new "treaty system" but I notice this isn't specified in the minutes. Managing 50 contracts a day and having to manually do the arithmetic takes HOURS.

It might be great sitting in empire running such a corp, because u don't need ALL of these systems functioning at the same time together to be working.

However, I do put to Issler that this is what makes lowsec so empty these days.
One of the platforms many people in the current CSM got voted in on.
Not to mention just "mining in general" that she herself got voted in on.
It also effects wormhole people quite a lot.

This whole thing enters into all kinds of subjects from running a corp to new player experience, but now after they have been voted in - it cannot find a champion to fix it despite the many champions that said they WOULD before and during voting week last time.

I keep comparing this to mittens Titan hotfix, because he had that done through skype within a couple of weeks - no summit required. As none of this was even brought up AT the summit, one wonders how many years off these changes are now...

We don't need more people involved in the development process AT THE EXPENSE of players being represented to CCP.

All in all a pretty sad state of affairs.



So to be clear, when I talk of my mining corp, we are one of the older ones in Eve. We have lived everywhere from null, WHs, low and high sec. We are a medium sized corp. We charge 0% taxes and make enough profits to give very good member benefits. We do this buying all ore and minerals that miners want to sell us at high Jita prices and then turning that into ships, mostly T2. To be going on our 6th year in Eve I must know something about mining and industry.

But I didn't run on what I know about Eve, I ran on representing miners and industrialist's interests. I ran saying I would be looking to the players for what they wanted in Eve.

I looked at your posts and I didn't see anything other that you feel exploration sites for miners are overly profitable compared to the other types of sites. I haven't seen a lot of other folks complaining about that.

So what immediately actionable changes do you want? I ask because one thing I was VERY clear about it I will be looking to players for feedback about things they wanted conveyed to CCP. So what is it you think CCP should be doing near term?

Issler
Frying Doom
#65 - 2012-09-02 20:45:12 UTC
My personal thing is that I would like to be able to set up an automated contract via the new contract system with the ability to
1) calculate the value of the incoming contract from a player based on Jita prices -5 or 10%
2) Have it automatically limited to certain stations
3) have it limited to an amount I choose, for example 50 million
4) have it so a character may only submit this contract the number per day or week as I specify, for example 1 per day.
5) Be able to specify the minerals or ores I would like to be able to be purchased via this
6) the same thing for salvage

Well that and have the bloody stupid war dec system fixed, it is a mess and the old one worked better than this new rubbish.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#66 - 2012-09-02 21:16:31 UTC
On the concept of bad PR did Two Step take a course?

His current comment designed to get him ganked is located
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1873354#post1873354

The offending remark being
"2) I am in no way advocating player limits or some such nonsense for lower class wormholes. My view is that because a POS in a C1 doesn't have to face dreadnaught guns, it shouldn't have dreadnaught-level shields and weapons. In exchange, perhaps these POSes would have the longer reinforcement timers mentioned in the minutes, especially if those timers required action from both the attacker and the defender to prolong. I think this would be a good solution to folks worried about having their POS randomly reinforced."

Now why would anyone want to live in a wormhole that is subject to hostile combat, bubbles and no easy means of leaving as well as no ability to jump clone if we can not actually have a home that will not just need constant attention as it gets whacked into a needing attention mode all the time.
It is not even so much the armor defence(as shields will be gone) with a smaller pos we will have a smaller power grid and CPU so it limits what we will be able to do.

That's Just insane, Hi-sec can have a full POS but not lower wormhole residences. People were rather pissed and got to the point of saying that Two step either wanted this so his corp could kill easy towers or so they could have easy exits to hi-sec as no one would be living in the lower class wormholes.

He responded with this beauty
"3) There have been some accusations both here and elsewhere that this is because AHARM wants to attack more lower class wormholes or something similar. This is total nonsense. If we wanted to attack lower class wormholes, we could certainly do so right now. Your 10 man corp isn't going to be saved by your large POS full of ECM, it is safe because large groups have no interest in attacking you. We aren't in it for the loot, which is pretty meager, we are there for the fights, and we wouldn't get one from a small corp in a C1."

The attack of the Ego, yes to be honest he probably could but we really don't want to hear about it considering the comments were made in response to his Transmission Lost and the No other large alliances comment. It came across that if you are in a lower wormhole as a large corp you don't belong their and no one else does either.

So as I have said else where Two step is doing a great job of coming of as the C5-C6 wormhole candidate but if the lower class POS's are nerfed that's all you will need as no one else will be left.

So might I suggest Two Step do a course in not sticking his foot in his mouth because as it stands if the POSs are stuffed up in general not just for lower WH people will mentally link the POS crap with his name.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#67 - 2012-09-03 05:51:44 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
My personal thing is that I would like to be able to set up an automated contract via the new contract system with the ability to
1) calculate the value of the incoming contract from a player based on Jita prices -5 or 10%
2) Have it automatically limited to certain stations
3) have it limited to an amount I choose, for example 50 million
4) have it so a character may only submit this contract the number per day or week as I specify, for example 1 per day.
5) Be able to specify the minerals or ores I would like to be able to be purchased via this
6) the same thing for salvage

Well that and have the bloody stupid war dec system fixed, it is a mess and the old one worked better than this new rubbish.


I'm also all for this, however my earlier efforts to get changes made were met with such generalisations, I figured not to get too specific in the changes in this way.

My fears now are that the CSM understands so little of small corp management anymore that very little or none of the needs will be met for this section of the eve population.

Getting autocalculation of mineral payments based on jita - you may as well reach for the stars.

.
Frying Doom
#68 - 2012-09-03 08:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Revolution Rising wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
My personal thing is that I would like to be able to set up an automated contract via the new contract system with the ability to
1) calculate the value of the incoming contract from a player based on Jita prices -5 or 10%
2) Have it automatically limited to certain stations
3) have it limited to an amount I choose, for example 50 million
4) have it so a character may only submit this contract the number per day or week as I specify, for example 1 per day.
5) Be able to specify the minerals or ores I would like to be able to be purchased via this
6) the same thing for salvage

Well that and have the bloody stupid war dec system fixed, it is a mess and the old one worked better than this new rubbish.


I'm also all for this, however my earlier efforts to get changes made were met with such generalisations, I figured not to get too specific in the changes in this way.

My fears now are that the CSM understands so little of small corp management anymore that very little or none of the needs will be met for this section of the eve population.

Getting autocalculation of mineral payments based on jita - you may as well reach for the stars.

But at least if it is posted it can be read. It might not get done but at least the view is expressed.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#69 - 2012-09-03 10:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Frying Doom wrote:

But at least if it posted it can be read. It might not get done but at least the view is expressed.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=960382#post960382

That thread is a font of great ideas from all kinds of players from all over the EvE Universe.

It's a pity so many things have been so lost in the "CCP Friendliness Campaign".

.
Frying Doom
#70 - 2012-09-03 12:31:35 UTC
Not sure what a CCP friendliness Campaign is but CCP bing friendly to us well that is always nice and THE CSM being nice at the point where they are being introduced to a trial run of being lower in the development process is a great thing.

But getting what we want across is not about yelling at CCP as that will get us no where fast.

That was always the thing that got me about the CSM their ideas normally only come about after the CSM has gone making the good and bad more the Next CSMs problem, where as the things that are released during their term all they can really do is hint and suggest.

Take the Current theme "WAR" it has got some good things in it like ship rebalancing and general War based fixes.

I personally would like the theme for the next cycle to be "Let's Build it", so based on the player side of creating and building things so mining up to how much salvage is dropped in PvP combat. There are items left on the market that are NPC built, I would like to see all these gone and have a player only economy in relation to items for sale.

Also why not a stock exchange for corporations to get cash in exchange for stock, this would also mean pirates could hold you up till you transferred stock options, not to mention the usual buy low sell high routine.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#71 - 2012-09-03 15:47:21 UTC
While it's good for CCP and CSM to be on friendly terms, I do consider their positions and outlooks to be different.

CCP will tell CSM what the next expansion entails and CSM will give them their ideas on that.

However, going in the other direction should be at the very least some short term fixes to systems that have seen no love from CCP for a long time.

Generally, a few of these changes have made it to the CSM like in the thread listed above - there are some great small changes that could ostensibly take less than a week to fix altogether.

I am not suggesting that CSM be at ods with CCP.

However, I do suggest that their perspectives be different and that the minutes should show what the CSM actually ADDED to the entire process.

I was very active during the election period and was very Pro-Seleene/Two Step/Hans at the time, anyone can look it up and see that. The problem is I feel that they have done very little in the way of guiding CCP, instead being guided by them.

No short term changes have been introduced anywhere in industry with the exception of the exhumer/barge patch - which was never on anyone's election blog as a huge impediment to mining.

I too am looking forward to things like better corporation pages and POS revamps, I find it somewhat amusing that the spodumain topic falls under neither category and yet has never been mentioned at all - making it a stark example of topics which have never been brought up with CCP despite assurances that they would be.

As far as "WAR" being a theme, when has it not been?

.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#72 - 2012-09-04 23:28:52 UTC
Hey Rev, with your years experience. I got a question.

Can you shoot roids at all or destroy them that way? Or does it take too long?

Thought it would be fun to shoot those spod chucks or other ****** roids to spawn another site. Just jump in a SB and bomb that **** till its dust, and get another site would be fun.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#73 - 2012-09-04 23:29:49 UTC
It also seems a lot of us got kicked out of the main thread.

I told ya Rev that renters and renter issues are too taboo, and only make people feel bad.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Frying Doom
#74 - 2012-09-05 00:36:21 UTC
I will admit I do like how the AMA thread is starting to go now we have stopped hi-jacking it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#75 - 2012-09-05 01:01:13 UTC
Yeah a lot more smarter and more mature people started showing up after the leave. Its for the best.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#76 - 2012-09-05 03:54:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Frying Doom wrote:
I will admit I do like how the AMA thread is starting to go now we have stopped hi-jacking it.


Agreed, but in 3 pages of bullshit, I never once got a straight answer.

Basically my last post there was showing that the idea was not all mine at all, the issue is obvious - even to people who often don't agree with me in forums, and that they could debate and debate for a long time on nonsense if they didn't want to answer the base question - Why are none of the platforms Seleene stood on to get into the CSM even MENTIONED in the minutes?

Instead they accused us/me of hijacking the thread and changed the subject, after many other attempts to just plain not answer the question properly.

And just for the record if you take a good look at most of the questions - they all pertain to things CCP could answer - bringing me back to the CSM just being a CCP mouthpiece. These questions are considered "not derailing the thread".

Keep in mind guys I was very Pro-Seleene last election and did a fair bit of forum work to help him - that's why I know what he said very well, and he just hasn't made it happen at all - not even a mention.

.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#77 - 2012-09-05 04:06:50 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Hey Rev, with your years experience. I got a question.

Can you shoot roids at all or destroy them that way? Or does it take too long?

Thought it would be fun to shoot those spod chucks or other ****** roids to spawn another site. Just jump in a SB and bomb that **** till its dust, and get another site would be fun.


Naaa you can't shoot em unfortunately ;)

.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#78 - 2012-09-05 06:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Damn stuck then.

Well its kind of funny, you talking about being pro-Seleene back then. Back then he wasn't in the running for chair, and I never though he would make it really. Hard to describe it as in, well things are a lot bigger with him making chair, then it should have been. And since things are bigger, harder to always implement or get what was promised.

Also those platforms, might have been in theory, from a normal CSM member really, (and what Seleene has done so far, is better then normal CSM member), but I mostly mean, getting hopes up over a normal CSM person is a bit strange.

To continue the meme of wierd CSM ideas about how they work. I would say, if a promise comes from a non chairman CSM, it would be a lot harder to implement, like only promises from a chairman would be worth getting all hoped up. Of course they make those promises when they are already chair. (Which Seleene made those promises before becoming chair.)

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#79 - 2012-09-05 06:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Yeah the point being he has been in CSM for many years now.

So if the platform is just a "theory" then why put it there at all unless it is to "modify perceptions" in the EVE Community.

"Modify Perceptions" being a nice way of saying "Lie".

It's like being saying "I'm going to do this." when really I know I can't.

Also, the Chair sets the agenda, and none of the things he said would be there, were there.

I see no other way to look at it than fail, fail and more fail.

I'm fully understanding that they cannot just tell CCP what to do, however, they can communicate with CCP in a way where the communication becomes a matter of record.

Consider - if this spodumain problem comes up again in 2 years and it's still not changed - where can THAT current CSM say to CCP - hey see back here 2 years ago, you were told about it then.

They can't because it was taken off the agenda and therefore not in the minutes - instead being mentioned to them on drinking night or whatever the **** it was.

That's not acceptable for the people they get to vote for them on these platforms.

.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#80 - 2012-09-05 07:29:33 UTC
Yeah I am mostly worried that not many people know about this problem. Might be best to tweet a CCP person or evemail them if you can.

It would be fun or maybe not fun to hear their response.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne