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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Introduction to Anarchy

Author
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#41 - 2012-08-28 01:56:04 UTC
Capsuleers are a perfect example of what happens to humans when given a large degree of freedom. It shows fairly clearly why the human species is simply not smart enough to act in its own best interest. Mr. Drengist posits a world where everyone acts in the best interest of the human species and themselves in a rationally manner. Humanity is simply not capable of that. We are not wise enough.
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-08-28 03:13:51 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
We are not wise enough.

Wisdom has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-08-28 03:18:25 UTC
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:
We are not wise enough.

Wisdom has absolutely nothing to do with it.
It's a primate thing.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-08-28 03:24:04 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Capsuleers are a perfect example of what happens to humans when given a large degree of freedom. It shows fairly clearly why the human species is simply not smart enough to act in its own best interest. Mr. Drengist posits a world where everyone acts in the best interest of the human species and themselves in a rationally manner. Humanity is simply not capable of that. We are not wise enough.



I'm not entirely sure it's a matter of lacking intelligence or wisdom. As much as those of us with compassion would like to believe that someday the whole of humanity could work together toward bettering the species as a whole, I don't think it's even possible short of permanent drastic measures. The fact of the matter is that no species of plant or animal known to exist can be said to "act in the best interest of the whole species" in the same sense that some of us idealistically talk about. It's very nearly universal that communities of any species can and do fight against other communities of the very same species. Everything from colonies of insects to packs of predatory mammals routinely compete, often fatally, with one another for resources from food to mating rights.

Knowing that, it seems incredibly idealistic to think humans, animals that have so masterfully nurtured thought and awareness into differences among the same species, could ever possibly work together as a unified species. Of all the animals in creation, we have the most ways to label each other as different, outsider, or simply "not self" since we can make such seemingly abstract divisions as political alignments or concepts of morality. Simply put I don't think we're capable of any sort of utopian society, and further I don't think nature, creation, or any flavor of Divinity ever intended us to be capable of it.

Of course that very last bit simply means those people who adamantly strive to be the "masters of their own destiny" will see it as the final way a person can become more than what they are or were.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-08-28 03:33:36 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
The fact of the matter is that no species of plant or animal known to exist can be said to "act in the best interest of the whole species" in the same sense that some of us idealistically talk about.
Aye and once upon time no species known to exist was capable of space flight either, but eventually one species advanced to a point where that did happen. Just because an entire species acting in the best interests of itself isn't the natural norm, shouldn't dissuade us from pursuing it.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#46 - 2012-08-28 03:41:41 UTC
I have but one question.

What the hell is a turtle?
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-08-28 03:50:34 UTC
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
I have but one question.

What the hell is a turtle?

A mythological creature believed by some primitive cultures to carry New Eden within a pouch on it's abdomen.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-08-28 03:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
I have but one question.

What the hell is a turtle?


A Vherokior mystic told me once that the turtle guides me, amazing reptiles they are, in certain cultures they symbolize longevity and wisdom.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-08-28 03:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara wrote:
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
I have but one question.

What the hell is a turtle?

A mythological creature believed by some primitive cultures to carry New Eden within a pouch on it's abdomen.

You mean neither of you have seen a turtle? What?

And you got the myth wrong too, my dad used to tell me the story about how the ancients believed that Intaki existed on the back of a giant turtle that moved through space.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-08-28 04:07:03 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
And you got the myth wrong too, my dad used to tell me the story about how the ancients believed that Intaki existed on the back of a giant turtle that moved through space.

Some cultures are more primitive than others.

Completely off topic though, wouldn't you say?
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-08-28 04:16:44 UTC
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara wrote:
Paul Oliver wrote:
And you got the myth wrong too, my dad used to tell me the story about how the ancients believed that Intaki existed on the back of a giant turtle that moved through space.

Some cultures are more primitive than others.

Completely off topic though, wouldn't you say?


*points @ Istvaan Shogaatsu*

He did it...
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#52 - 2012-08-28 04:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
Captain Drengist;

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I think I get the gist of your argument but will have to apologize up-front: I do poorly with political sciences. I would like to ask a follow-up question, if I may. Democratic systems elect people by simple popular vote. I believe the idea of mob rule has been mentioned, so I won't expound deeply on that point, though I feel it is an important weakness. However, what in your system is to stop a popularly-elected official in your society from simply deciding to keep the means of power - weapons, wealth, the means of production - for himself and his close allies, and becoming a tyranny? He cannot be deposed easily, now owning the power in the system and being willing to use violence to maintain his rule.

I suppose that my deep issue is that the system seems too fragile, and too reliant on the Activated Type II Human Cognitive System. It is far too easy for fatigue, frustration or excess emotion to activate the Type I Human Cognitive System, at which point co-operative planning collapses to the smallest stable relationship structure, which is usually about 20-60 people and no more than 150. Neurological changes to the human cognitive map would be needed before this system could be considered reliable. Am I mistaken? This is not my field, so I am likely missing something.

I would also like to point out a small comment made by Captain Oliver, and to make a rebuttal of sorts. Earlier, you commented that most Caldari are merely 'cogs in a machine,' sir. I agree! I would only like to point out that so too are the Gallente, or any others in societies. You may say that the Gallente worker has more mobility - I say that this is not so. He or she will find work commesurate to his or her ability, just as we do here. We are all bound together as gears in a machine. The only question is how well that machine works.

Why is this a bad thing? Cogs hold tight to one another, turn together, and in unison they can grind down mountains or build miracles. I'm glad to be a cog. Indeed, I ask you, sir: where is the joy of life without it?
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-08-28 04:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Scherezad wrote:
I would also like to point out a small comment made by Captain Oliver, and to make a rebuttal of sorts. Earlier, you commented that most Caldari are merely 'cogs in a machine,' sir. I agree! I would only like to point out that so too are the Gallente, or any others in societies. You may say that the Gallente worker has more mobility - I say that this is not so. He or she will find work commesurate to his or her ability, just as we do here. We are all bound together as gears in a machine. The only question is how well that machine works.

Why is this a bad thing? Cogs hold tight to one another, turn together, and in unison they can grind down mountains or build miracles. I'm glad to be a cog. Indeed, I ask you, sir: where is the joy of life without it?

As an INDIVIDUAL who values LIBERTY I take great offense to being called a cog, maam. Given your political orientation I can see why you would glorify the life of a human cog, but to me the very idea is repulsive, to call one a cog in my mind is to call someone a faceless drone with no real sense of individuality or purpose beyond it's machine collective. You have offended me maam, and so I present to you the song that conveys how I feel about you and your collectivist State.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-08-28 04:38:08 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Given your ethnicity...

Don't. Just don't.

Take a step back and think. Would you say this to your mother, your brother, or a lover? Would you like someone to talk to you this way? Do not compound a perceived offense with an intentional one.

Prove you're more than just a reactive animal; prove you are a rational, reasoning person.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-08-28 04:41:45 UTC
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara wrote:
Paul Oliver wrote:
Given your ethnicity...

Don't. Just don't.

Take a step back and think. Would you say this to your mother, your brother, or a lover? Would you like someone to talk to you this way? Do not compound a perceived offense with an intentional one.

Prove you're more than just a reactive animal; prove you are a rational, reasoning person.



Paul Oliver really wrote:
Given your political orientation...


And you can't prove otherwise. P
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#56 - 2012-08-28 04:47:50 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:

As an INDIVIDUAL who values LIBERTY I take great offense to being called a cog, maam. Given your political orientation I can see why you would glorify the life of a human cog, but to me the very idea is repulsive, to call one a cog in my mind is to call someone a faceless drone with no real sense of individuality or purpose beyond it's machine collective. You have offended me maam, and so I present to you the song that conveys how I feel about you and your collectivist State.


I apologize, I meant no offense. I simply don't quite understand the claim of liberty very well. All but the most wealthy in our societies are equally bound by obligations and debts. We all use currency to establish what resources individuals are given access to; for the Lai Dai and Rodan man alike, both pay their bills and spend the excess for some fun and comfort. And all of us, wealthy or no, we are all bound even more tightly by the requirements of our friends and family, our love for them and desire to see them happy. Their expectations define us even as we define theirs.

This is what I mean when I say that we are all cogs. There is no shame in it, and I would wish it no other way. In what meaningful ways are the Gallente free and the Caldari not? What of these things would you be rid of, in the name of your liberty?

Also: I'm sorry, I didn't very much enjoy your song. I'm sure its very nice! Its just not very easy for me to listen to.
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-08-28 04:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Paul Oliver:

Only, we two know what you said. At the very least, you and I know. Third party archiving aside, of course. You have proven to me what kind of individual you are, and that is far more important than you saving face after the fact. You prove why such dreams as those presented here are impractical at best.

However, you also show that altering behavior is rather simple, given proper motivation. Think of what could be done if we all had a little Voice reminding us to think before we speak, or alter an offending word after the fact? Such beautiful harmony and complexity of interaction, non?

Thank you, Scherezad. You are quite a marvelous little cog, if I may say so.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-08-28 05:14:51 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
This is what I mean when I say that we are all cogs. There is no shame in it, and I would wish it no other way. In what meaningful ways are the Gallente free and the Caldari not? What of these things would you be rid of, in the name of your liberty?
Well seeing as you annexed that handy little "meaningful" qualifier on there I suspect any reasons I give will probably be dismissed. Despite that I would point out that as an individual, when I wake up in the morning and go to class at the Academy it is not as part of some collective in which I am simply another faceless automaton, it is as an individual with individual ideas and thoughts within a group of other individuals with different ideas and thoughts. When we work it is not as some uniform caldari gray collective but as a group of individuals focused on a common goal. Perhaps I'm simply arguing semantics here but they are important semantics, and if you ever call me a smeggin cog again there may come a day when I will be the one to show you the difference between a cog and an individual. The cogs will be my drones picking away at your shields, and I will be the individual who flys up your ass and shoves a rack of blasters down your thruster, are we crystal?
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#59 - 2012-08-28 05:18:22 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
I apologize, I meant no offense. I simply don't quite understand the claim of liberty very well.

It's a nice word for selfishness.

Are cogs selfish? They aren't. A cog is created for a task, is meant to be in a system, and can be evaluated by how well it serves that system. So Mr. Oliver can't be a cog.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-08-28 05:19:42 UTC
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara wrote:
Paul Oliver:

Only, we two know what you said. At the very least, you and I know. You have proven to me what kind of individual you are, and that is far more important than you saving face after the fact. You prove why such dreams as those presented here are impractical at best.
And you have proven that you like to make claims without accurate evidence to back them up, something I thought was frowned upon within Caldari society. I have not saved face after any fact, and unless you can provide accurate evidence to the contrary I suggest you refrain from calling a Gallentean a racist.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).