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Causes for War.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-08-29 15:15:55 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:

One day I may go into detail about the innumerable horrors I endured after my "liberation."

We all know where are these ideals of liberations and freedom fighters come from. These media and holoreels, depicting freedom fighter scum as heroes, who in fact bring only devastation and destruction... People need to hear more stories like your to counter all this liberation-related brainwashing, coming from trash bin of our star cluster.

Some people believe, that they have right or freedom to "liberate" others when they see fit. Their rights-based system allows it. They have no laws or moral rules against it. They have no logic and do not respect other cultures. Blaze of afterburner, is all what they deserve. And if they so much like this rights-based system, I will claim my right to kill them, and I can even name it "liberation from life".

Liberation for liberators!

I will bring them freedom

of afterlife.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#42 - 2012-08-29 15:20:55 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Some people believe, that they have right or freedom to "liberate" others when they see fit. Their rights-based system allows it. They have no laws or moral rules against it. They have no logic and do not respect other cultures. Blaze of afterburner, is all what they deserve. And if they so much like this rights-based system, I will claim my right to kill them, and I can even name it "liberation from life".

Hmm... are you talking about the Amarr Reclamation or the various Minmatar/Galletnte freedom-fighting actions? It's funny how similar they are, yes?

The difference is the former narrows personal choice and restricts freedom. The latter expands it. The latter may be more messy, but autocannons are innacurate. I'm sorrry.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#43 - 2012-08-29 15:25:17 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
If this so called "Day of Darkness" and a century of peacable status quo are to be considered valid reasons for war by any person, irrelevant of political affiliation or enlightenment.

If these are valid reasons for war; After a rebellion, after a seize fire, after the Empire Recognized the Minmatar Republic. After agreements and contracts. After one hundred years of the Empire treating the Minmatar Republic as a sovereign state and honouring those treaties.

If after all that, this so called "Day of Darkness" is in anyway a valid reason to violate contracts and agreements, if after all that the Status Quo as affirmed by those contracts is a valid reason for the tribalists to break their word and attack the Amarrian Empire.

Then any person holding that view, will have to concede theTribalists can not ever be expected honor their word, or to hold an agreement with the Amarrian Empire.

Such claims of justification leave the Amarrian Empire quite short on the options to assure the security of the Faithful. Either the coving of matari tribes through threat of arms to keep to themselves, Full enslavement of all tribes or the declaring of the tribes as Forsaken to God and dealing with any future attacks upon the Faith and the Faithful as befits those uneligible to enslavement.

Wise individuals might recognize the value in accepting that the Day of Darkness is no longer, after treaties signed, a valid reason for war. Some might also accept that acceeding to status quo as terms for peace remove that status quo as a valid cause for war. I shall not be supprised to see no wisdom from the tribal heathens, nor the Gallante that are much too often willing to debase themselves to their feelings and wants, in opposition to all morality and reason.

Were the tribes to act as civilized people should and admit that their feelings got the better of them and that they are at fault for breaking their word to the Empire by attacking us in violation to all treaties. the Empire could likely accept an apology and reparations., leading towards a peace where tribes would no longer blame their failings upon others but would seek to improve themselves as befits those claiming sole responcibility for themselves, this 'freedom' they seem to covet so much.

That however would require these heathens to own up to their own respocibilities and failings, to order their own house as the saying goes. It would be what civilized humans would do and as such I will be much supprised of individuals admitting to this, let alone any clan or tribe of matari descent to acknoledge the blatant truth.

And before some gallantean agitator flails in to muddy the waters I would note that I have not mentioned the Caldari in this discussion for reasons that should be clear to any clearly thinking member of the State as well as to my fellow Amarrians.


Give us our brothers and sisters held in slavery back and all hostilities will end, You bleed because you resist.

.....
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-08-29 15:52:00 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Hmm... are you talking about the Amarr Reclamation or the various Minmatar/Galletnte freedom-fighting actions? It's funny how similar they are, yes?
Have you ever fought for the Empire?
I spent about a year fighting among crusaders, and no, we weren't liberating anyone and, of course, I never seen a single freedom fighter in their ranks.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Urthel Drengist
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-08-29 16:16:55 UTC
Halete wrote:
I don't understand what you're getting at.

Not at all.

Why would I not be more interested in the opinions of somebody expressly touched by the war as opposed to the views of some profiteer who has a good laugh about destroying a mothership crewed by potentially thousands of men and women?


Halete wrote:
My interest is piqued upon your perception of the war, I shall admit. I would very much like to continue to hear your thoughts, although it is with my hope that you will consider articulating them in a less emotionally loaded fashion than you have presented here, lest you evoke further vitriol.


You said you are interested in hearing more about her side and opinion of war, but with less emotion. I made the safe assumption after seeing in what Corporation Ms Katran is into. Her Corporation has nothing to do with warfare.in fact it is all about Manufacturing(from what i can see in their public Statement)....thus Ms Katran cant offer an experience BUT emotionally regarding war....

Urthel Drengist

C.E.O and Founder of Drengist Intergalactic Liberal Enterprises Ltd. [L.I.D.E.L ] 
Braitai
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-08-30 00:47:28 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Firstly, I am not a slaver.


Oh? You just support slavery, "reclamation", a euphemism for the destruction of another's life.

Fool Amarrian, you skirt around the issues and blame everyone but yourself for the evil you espouse. You are a slaver, and a slave.
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-08-30 05:43:06 UTC
Braitai wrote:
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Firstly, I am not a slaver.


Oh? You just support slavery, "reclamation", a euphemism for the destruction of another's life.

Fool Amarrian, you skirt around the issues and blame everyone but yourself for the evil you espouse. You are a slaver, and a slave.


Reclamation is a euphemism for the saving of a life, not for the destruction of one. Whilst there are abuses, and those need to be dealt with, there is more to this matter than the forcible capture of a freeman and the dissolution of family bonds. Many of those currently in service within the Empire have been Slaves for generations. Many of those who are proud free peoples were once slaves.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#48 - 2012-08-30 09:42:31 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
The war cry is "we come for our people", not "we come for your people". Until they have themselves chosen otherwise (as you have), they deserve the freedom of the Matari people. And they will get it.


Your people? They've been living on our worlds for over 700 years now. How many generations is that? These people have been part of our society for centuries. I think that makes them our people. Do you really think that going to the world that someone has grown up in, destroying everything around them, killing their friends and families, dragging them across twenty light years, dumping them off on some random planet and telling them "You're free! Now start your whole life over from scratch!" is somehow helping them?


Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I understand. Wanting slavery to end threatens the Amarr way of life, and standing up to protect your own way of life is a respectable thing to do.


I understand. Wanting the war with the Amarr to end threatens the Minmatar way of life, because that's pretty much the entire foundation of their society. And they accuse of us not being progressive?


Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Slavery, and denying free will to another human being, however, is not. When in the Republic, you were free to return to the Empire. When you were first in the Empire, you were not free to leave.


Tell that to the men I had to kill crossing the border. Apparently they didn't like seeing one of their precious frigates being "liberated" or "finding it's own path in the universe." Then again it may have been because I turned some people into roasted marshmellows on my way out. Who knows?


Petrus Blackshell wrote:
This is the "freedom" I speak of. If a slave denies living in servitude in the Amarr way of life, his chains (literal or figurative) are simply pulled tighter (stricter rules, more physical restrictions, or, Matar forbid, Vitoc). If a citizen of the Republic wishes to search for the better life, it may be an uphill battle, but he has the potential ability to make it. The difference is the presence and possibility of choice. A slave by choice is an indentured servant, and that is perfectly fine. A slave not by choice is an abuse of human nature and cries out for justice.


I feel a sudden compulsion to sneak into a Minmatar maximum security prison for the incurably insane, shooting the locks off the cell doors and reciting that verbatim on the way out. See, there is this strange invisible connection between having rights and having responsibilities. You don't give a two year old a hand laser for the same reason you don't give one to a serial killer. Because they will do bad things with it. Because they cannot be trusted to be responsible with it, thus you take away their right to have it. The Ammatar have shown themselves to be responsible users of freedom, which may be why you don't see them wearing slave chains.

Or to put it another way: "Jamyl shocked the entire cluster when she announced the historic emancipation of millions of Minmatar slaves. Every Minmatar slave of 9th generation and up, plus any involved in theological and academic fields, were to be released from bondage."

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#49 - 2012-08-30 09:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
So far as the rest of all that, you can wax poetic about prisons, criminals, terrorists, monsters, and whatever if you want; it just sounds ignorant and biased. I could do the same with rhetoric about pillaging invaders, ruthless zealots, cultural eradication, entire abducted populations, or other fun buzz words. War is brutal. Civilians get hurt. Collateral damage happens. Abuses of power are common. Pointless battles and loss of life are a fact. I really fail to see your point with all that.


Abuses of power comes from a lack of moral integrity. Try a society where power comes from morality rather than seeing morality as something to be sacrificed in the name of power and you'll understand.


Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Finally, you may want to fact check; the Republic has never stood by any rogue factions: not Ushra'Khan, not the Elders, not anyone else. They are taking the easy way out of peace, effectively trading the freedom of all those Matar the Empire still holds for the safety of those back home. Perhaps this is the right choice for the Republic, but we "rogues" will not forget. We come for our people.


I'm quite familiar with the concept of "plausible deniability." I keep a collection box of deniable evidence under my bed, in fact.

It's a real shame, too, because while the Amarr Navy may be getting excited about firing up the Reclaiming again, they are held in check - for now - by those who appreciate the Pax Ammaria. The Republic would be wise to take advantage of this and to learn to let sleeping dogs lie rather than continuing to endorse these terrorist acts within our borders & upon our people... but such wisdom clearly eludes them.

It's very simple: Stop sending terrorists and we'll stop shooting them. But you won't, because war and violence is as much a part of Minmatar faith as The Scriptures is to ours. It does not matter if the Amarr want war or peace because clearly the Minmatar want war. The will always want war because that's all that holds their society together.

I wonder... if, God forbid, the Minmatar ever defeated the Amarr & Caldari, how long would it take for them to turn on the Gallente next? And once having conquered the galaxy, how long until they turned upon each other until the whole of human civilization was burned to ashes?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#50 - 2012-08-31 15:12:49 UTC
The same ignorance and baseless accusations over and over.

If I visit Jita and find that the docking area of my hangar is rat-infested, it does not mean that the Caldari at large have a hygene problem. If I get indigestion after visiting a Gallente restaurant, it does not mean the Gallente have impossibly strong stomachs. If there are Minmatar pirates and splinter groups, that does not mean that the Matari people are amoral bloodthirsty beasts.

If I'm backed by the Republic, then you are backed by the Blood Raiders and Angel Cartel, who wish slavery to continue. See how easy baseless accusations are? If you try to contradict me, I will claim "plausible deniability" and pretend it's evidence.

Katran Luftschreck wrote:
It's very simple: Stop sending terrorists and we'll stop shooting them.

It's very simple: free my hundreds-of-years-removed brothers and give them choice in their lives, and we'll stop shooting you to get to them. The Empress's actions are commendable, but they were too little, too late, unfortunately.

Freedom of choice is not something earned; it's a basic right that arises from respect for all other human beings as fundamentally equal. I suppose I shouldn't expect someone from a culture that has a built-in birthright social structure, disdain for other cultures, and worshipping their head of state. I really shouldn't expect comprehension from someone with mental trauma because of past experiences, and a possible martyr complex. I recommend a psychologist. I'm done here.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-09-01 04:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Amaki Mai
Too little too late, eh?

It's interesting to see the way you treat a loyal citizen of the Mandate - one of those who earned the right to choose and then chose not to abandon enlightenment to trust in the rhetoric that is, along with hate, the only plentiful commodity in the refugee camps.

Self-determination, eh? Freedom of choice? Any choice you like, provided it's back to the refugee camps.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#52 - 2012-09-01 06:09:26 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
It's very simple: free my hundreds-of-years-removed brothers and give them choice in their lives, and we'll stop shooting you to get to them. The Empress's actions are commendable, but they were too little, too late, unfortunately.


Yes, hundreds of years is exactly my point. If I were to look at a family tree and go back one generation on my father's side you'll see a theology professor who married into the Devonshire family, minor nobles of Amarrian lineage who traded their minor holdings in Amarr space for somewhat larger ones in Ammatar space. If you trace his ancestry back a couple more generations you'll see nurses, engineers and even a dentist. If I keep going further back I can see the exact point, eight generations ago, where the first member of that side of the family completed their university studies and was granted citizenship. Go one step farther back where a simple slave who had worked diligently & piously had asked that his own son be allowed to study higher education. Go back the full twelve generations in all and you'll see a common convict who was conscripted & handed a laser rifle when the Amarr fleet came to Pator seven hundred years ago & was later recaptured by them, but not before killing an Amarrian soldier. He spent the rest of his life in chains, as well he should have.

So how did we start with an illiterate murderer escaping from one prison and end up with an engineering student escaping from another?

That's easy: A lot can happen over the span of seven centuries.

Do I thirst for vengeance? Of course. Perhaps it's just that Brutor blood line the Minmatar love to hold so sacred. But I am more than a bloodline and that anger is kept in check by my Faith and my upbringing. I am a person who spent their entire life in both the Empire and the Mandate. I went to their schools (look it up sometime), I go to their temples. These are the people I grew up and spent my entire life with. I follow the Scriptures and try to live my life in accordance with the Faith. These are traits that I share those whom the Minmater seek to "liberate."

I never needed nor wanted their "liberation" for I have no desire to revert to the crude barbarism of my ancestors.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
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