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How to blow up a sun?

Author
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-08-22 23:29:25 UTC
@davis you're right normally the start off iron production ours the start of the end. When the weight becomes to great it can collapse. However the iron ours only produced at the end when other reactions are no longer ppossible.. Introduction of iron won't change this. Guess we will have to use the arse of jamyl sarum, bet it's big enough.
Anslo
Scope Works
#22 - 2012-08-23 13:08:37 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
@davis you're right normally the start off iron production ours the start of the end. When the weight becomes to great it can collapse. However the iron ours only produced at the end when other reactions are no longer ppossible.. Introduction of iron won't change this. Guess we will have to use the arse of jamyl sarum, bet it's big enough.


She does NOT have "dat ass" in any way....at least I don't think she does.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Phugoid
Absolute Order XL
Absolute Honor
#23 - 2012-08-23 15:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Phugoid
Didnt Tolian Soran from ST Generations (the movie) do something similar?
Heck, mayby even Guinan (Whoopie Goldberg) knows! :)

Flugzeugführer

Anslo
Scope Works
#24 - 2012-08-23 15:50:00 UTC
Phugoid wrote:
Didnt Tolian Soran from ST Generations (the movie) do something similar?
Heck, mayby even Guinan (Whoopie Goldberg) knows! :)


Soran didn't really blow up a sun, he sort of made it send out a pulse? Still, it's just as destructive...how did he do it again?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Phugoid
Absolute Order XL
Absolute Honor
#25 - 2012-08-23 16:08:39 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Phugoid wrote:
Didnt Tolian Soran from ST Generations (the movie) do something similar?
Heck, mayby even Guinan (Whoopie Goldberg) knows! :)


Soran didn't really blow up a sun, he sort of made it send out a pulse? Still, it's just as destructive...how did he do it again?


Hmmm, if I remember correctly, Soran launched a missle towards the sun (of the planet he was on) which caused the sun to explode, which changed the course of the NEXUS string, which swallowed up Soran and sent him to blissfull heaven, but the unfortunate affect of that was the total destruction of an inhabited planet and the survivors of the crash landed Enterprise.....

of course, it was all fixed by going back in time :)

Flugzeugführer

Anslo
Scope Works
#26 - 2012-08-23 16:11:15 UTC
Phugoid wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Phugoid wrote:
Didnt Tolian Soran from ST Generations (the movie) do something similar?
Heck, mayby even Guinan (Whoopie Goldberg) knows! :)


Soran didn't really blow up a sun, he sort of made it send out a pulse? Still, it's just as destructive...how did he do it again?


Hmmm, if I remember correctly, Soran launched a missle towards the sun (of the planet he was on) which caused the sun to explode, which changed the course of the NEXUS string, which swallowed up Soran and sent him to blissfull heaven, but the unfortunate affect of that was the total destruction of an inhabited planet and the survivors of the crash landed Enterprise.....

of course, it was all fixed by going back in time :)


Did the movie even mention the material he used? I can't believe a missile could get through the sun's corona, let alone to it's core, to allow it to blow up.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Phugoid
Absolute Order XL
Absolute Honor
#27 - 2012-08-23 18:34:53 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Phugoid wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Phugoid wrote:
Didnt Tolian Soran from ST Generations (the movie) do something similar?
Heck, mayby even Guinan (Whoopie Goldberg) knows! :)


Soran didn't really blow up a sun, he sort of made it send out a pulse? Still, it's just as destructive...how did he do it again?


Hmmm, if I remember correctly, Soran launched a missle towards the sun (of the planet he was on) which caused the sun to explode, which changed the course of the NEXUS string, which swallowed up Soran and sent him to blissfull heaven, but the unfortunate affect of that was the total destruction of an inhabited planet and the survivors of the crash landed Enterprise.....

of course, it was all fixed by going back in time :)


Did the movie even mention the material he used? I can't believe a missile could get through the sun's corona, let alone to it's core, to allow it to blow up.


Nope. It was actually a bit far-fetched to believe. Was a small missle, probs 10 ft long, and it reached the sun in about a minute, which is kind of impossible to begin with time-wise. Of course tho, it's sci-fi, some laws of physics can be forgotten.

Flugzeugführer

Marcion Cravik
Phoibe Enterprises
#28 - 2012-08-23 18:56:57 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Did the movie even mention the material he used? I can't believe a missile could get through the sun's corona, let alone to it's core, to allow it to blow up.


There you go.
Anslo
Scope Works
#29 - 2012-08-23 18:57:50 UTC
Marcion Cravik wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Did the movie even mention the material he used? I can't believe a missile could get through the sun's corona, let alone to it's core, to allow it to blow up.


There you go.


Thank ya kindly sir!

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-08-23 19:01:31 UTC
Put jump bridges all around it? Surely activating those things has some sort of effect on the physics of the local area.

Speaking of New Eden physics (as opposed to our universe's physics), what effect of the 'fluid dynamics model' oily goo that New Eden space is made of? (Not sure if the stuff is actually a part of the lore, though).
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-08-24 08:05:33 UTC
David Forge wrote:
Note: I am neither a physicist nor a mathematician.

I threw together some rough numbers just for fun, taking into account the above disclaimer it's very possible I made a mistake or two. Anyone with any real knowledge on this sort thing feel free to correct and shame me.

Assume:

1 Charon with 785,000 m3 of cargo space filled with antimatter.

Now, antimatter could come in all types of densities depending on what you make it out of, this is practically back of the napkin so I just assumed one cubic meter would contain one ton of antimatter.

I used a calculator to do the antimatter reaction energy output as I do not trust myself to do it but at 785,000 tons of antimatter I got an explosive output of 30,646,400,000 megatons. Converting into joules (again, with a calculator made by someone smarter than I) I got 1.2822454 x 10^26 joules. Wikipedia says that the energy output of the sun (a smallish star) per second is 3.8 x 10^26. So we're looking at an explosion that (let's say happened in a single second which is unlikely but simplifies the problem) would increase the energy output of a star of the same size and type as ours by almost exactly 1/3 for one second. This effect diminishes quickly if the time for the explosion to occur increases. A ten second explosion would (I'm guessing) result in ten seconds where the energy output of the star was increased by only a little over 3%.

So, after this cursory examination, I would advise the OP to find a very small star or a very large number of freighters. Alternatively, figure out Sansha wormhole technology and open one directly into or through a star. That's bound to cause problems.

Lets leave aside rate of annihilation reaction (and won't call it as an explosion, well, you know, even heaviest of thermonuclear bombs do not explode, but burn) and look at the result.
First, pressure in the core of sun is about 10^17 Pa, if our charon is filled with antimatter at pressure of ~100 atm (10^7 Pa), it will collapse like in 10^10 times, well, practically, it will become much less than 1m³.
So, at first, we will have to stretch star by 1m³ (how rude!) :D
Next, the annihilation happens. This reaction causes transformation of fermion matter (like electrons, protons, that cannot take the same place in space) to bosons (like photons). The sum of mass-energy in this reaction persists, so calculation of released energy is not important. What is important, that we take away matter from the star, making a 'hole' of size less than 1m³ (neglecting pressure of photons in first iteration, since it will be times less than pressure of fermions).

Well, returning to energy as a measure of going supernova, one should give star about ~10^44 Joules for it to cast off a layer.

Applying point of energy-mass to the star won't make any effect. Stars are bubbles of matter, even if you 'shift' say, like half of the Sun, it will return back, of course spitting some plasma and heavy radiation from the core, but still it will reorganize itself without blowing apart.

What causes stars to go supernova, is the change in the whole volume of the star, or at least in a significant amount of volume, making a whole thick enough layer.

Well, so far it turns out to be 'how to not blow up a star'.
However, there is a 'sci-fi' solution of blowing up a star. Just open a wormhole in the core of the star. This will lead to leaking of star matter through wormhole, making new star on the other side (on the other hand the matter will just be dissipating (exploding) with high velocities because of tremendous pressure inside the star). If the wormhole will be large enough to channel huge amount of solar matter, upper layers will collapse towards the emptied core, tear apart and throw matter in different directions, making supernova.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Anslo
Scope Works
#32 - 2012-08-24 12:43:39 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
SCIENCE.


Damn.....Thank you Shocked

But from what I gathered...you'd need a wormhole.

What if you, say, built a star gate under a planet and, by some miracle, got one to a star's center. Could that work?

If not, oh well. Have to wait til Sansha gives us WH Generators T_T

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#33 - 2012-08-24 16:04:06 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
David Forge wrote:
Note: I am neither a physicist nor a mathematician.

I threw together some rough numbers just for fun, taking into account the above disclaimer it's very possible I made a mistake or two. Anyone with any real knowledge on this sort thing feel free to correct and shame me.

Assume:

1 Charon with 785,000 m3 of cargo space filled with antimatter.

Now, antimatter could come in all types of densities depending on what you make it out of, this is practically back of the napkin so I just assumed one cubic meter would contain one ton of antimatter.

I used a calculator to do the antimatter reaction energy output as I do not trust myself to do it but at 785,000 tons of antimatter I got an explosive output of 30,646,400,000 megatons. Converting into joules (again, with a calculator made by someone smarter than I) I got 1.2822454 x 10^26 joules. Wikipedia says that the energy output of the sun (a smallish star) per second is 3.8 x 10^26. So we're looking at an explosion that (let's say happened in a single second which is unlikely but simplifies the problem) would increase the energy output of a star of the same size and type as ours by almost exactly 1/3 for one second. This effect diminishes quickly if the time for the explosion to occur increases. A ten second explosion would (I'm guessing) result in ten seconds where the energy output of the star was increased by only a little over 3%.

So, after this cursory examination, I would advise the OP to find a very small star or a very large number of freighters. Alternatively, figure out Sansha wormhole technology and open one directly into or through a star. That's bound to cause problems.

Lets leave aside rate of annihilation reaction (and won't call it as an explosion, well, you know, even heaviest of thermonuclear bombs do not explode, but burn) and look at the result.
First, pressure in the core of sun is about 10^17 Pa, if our charon is filled with antimatter at pressure of ~100 atm (10^7 Pa), it will collapse like in 10^10 times, well, practically, it will become much less than 1m³.
So, at first, we will have to stretch star by 1m³ (how rude!) :D
Next, the annihilation happens. This reaction causes transformation of fermion matter (like electrons, protons, that cannot take the same place in space) to bosons (like photons). The sum of mass-energy in this reaction persists, so calculation of released energy is not important. What is important, that we take away matter from the star, making a 'hole' of size less than 1m³ (neglecting pressure of photons in first iteration, since it will be times less than pressure of fermions).

Well, returning to energy as a measure of going supernova, one should give star about ~10^44 Joules for it to cast off a layer.

Applying point of energy-mass to the star won't make any effect. Stars are bubbles of matter, even if you 'shift' say, like half of the Sun, it will return back, of course spitting some plasma and heavy radiation from the core, but still it will reorganize itself without blowing apart.

What causes stars to go supernova, is the change in the whole volume of the star, or at least in a significant amount of volume, making a whole thick enough layer.

Well, so far it turns out to be 'how to not blow up a star'.
However, there is a 'sci-fi' solution of blowing up a star. Just open a wormhole in the core of the star. This will lead to leaking of star matter through wormhole, making new star on the other side (on the other hand the matter will just be dissipating (exploding) with high velocities because of tremendous pressure inside the star). If the wormhole will be large enough to channel huge amount of solar matter, upper layers will collapse towards the emptied core, tear apart and throw matter in different directions, making supernova.


Thanks for that. I was worried about the calculations when my real problem was conceptual. Goes to show that Rumsfeld was right about the dangers of the things you know you don't know are outweighed by the dangers of the things you don't know you don't know.
Anslo
Scope Works
#34 - 2012-08-29 15:37:59 UTC
What about causing a sun flare to shoot at a specific target planet? I just can't believe that New Eden, as advanced as it is, isn't capable of stellar engineering.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Serena Serene
Heretic University
#35 - 2012-08-29 17:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Serena Serene
@The people talking about how matter introduced into a star would be compressed, like a freighter load into 1m³

That's not the case for "normal" stars like the earth's sun. Our sun has a density which is a little bit (~40%) above water on earth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

To compress matter further you need -a lot- of outside pressure to create a degenerate matter state, which happens in white dwarfs, for example.

Degenerate matter is pretty fascinating, even though I'm not really a physicist.
That's how I understand it:
It's when the pressure of a gas doesn't stem from its temperature anymore, like in usual matter, but from quantum effects like that you can't have two particles with the same state at the same place. In ultra-dense matter that means to compress it further you need to raise energy levels of some of the particles, which requires you to put in quite a lot of energy, and that's where the pressure comes from.

Anyway, that doesn't directly help with destroying stars, but I think you can't just go about it by adding some insignificant amount of mass to the star, and usually the combined mass of every object in the solar system aside from the star is still insignificant.

What could work maybe would be some sort of reaction or energy field or you-name-some-sci-fi-magic which stops the helium fusion process in a star. That'll result in a lot of the internal forces preventing collapse vanishing and a huge compression of the whole star, maybe igniting the fusion of heavier elements, ultimately causing a nova, or something like that.

Edit: some typos
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-08-30 12:01:01 UTC
Anslo wrote:
What about causing a sun flare to shoot at a specific target planet? I just can't believe that New Eden, as advanced as it is, isn't capable of stellar engineering.

If you have means to inspect velocities on convection flows inside a star, you may find proper spot, where matter can be ejected from. However, you still need to manipulate huge amount of matter and/or apply enormous amount of energy (for example, in form of electromagnetic field) to make way for this flare.

Stellar engineering requires not level of technology, but huge amounts of matter and energy. What you would want to manipulate with a star, is a source of matter and energy, comparable with a star.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-08-30 14:51:37 UTC
Serena Serene wrote:
@The people talking about how matter introduced into a star would be compressed, like a freighter load into 1m³

That's not the case for "normal" stars like the earth's sun. Our sun has a density which is a little bit (~40%) above water on earth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

To compress matter further you need -a lot- of outside pressure to create a degenerate matter state, which happens in white dwarfs, for example.

Degenerate matter is pretty fascinating, even though I'm not really a physicist.
That's how I understand it:
It's when the pressure of a gas doesn't stem from its temperature anymore, like in usual matter, but from quantum effects like that you can't have two particles with the same state at the same place. In ultra-dense matter that means to compress it further you need to raise energy levels of some of the particles, which requires you to put in quite a lot of energy, and that's where the pressure comes from.

Anyway, that doesn't directly help with destroying stars, but I think you can't just go about it by adding some insignificant amount of mass to the star, and usually the combined mass of every object in the solar system aside from the star is still insignificant.

What could work maybe would be some sort of reaction or energy field or you-name-some-sci-fi-magic which stops the helium fusion process in a star. That'll result in a lot of the internal forces preventing collapse vanishing and a huge compression of the whole star, maybe igniting the fusion of heavier elements, ultimately causing a nova, or something like that.

Edit: some typos

Further in the article you are linked, it is stated that inside the core our sun has a density of up to 150 g/cm³, that is about 150 times the density of water. In fact under colossal pressures matter is very easy to compress, because it consists of very tiny nuclei and huge electron shells, making efficiently all known matter an "empty space". What we know as interactions are interactions between these sparse electron clouds.

Degenerate matter is just superplasma, where you tear apart all of electron layers from atoms. Pressure of this matter is that of electron gas, since you have much more electrons than nuclei. It is just like electron gas in metals, but in metals pressure is dictated by electron shells of metal atoms, and in degenerate matter these shells are absent and do not contribute into pressure. When you compress it even further, electrons will react with protons, giving neutrons. These neutrons will form a superatom, that is hold together not by weak nuclear force, but gravity.

About stopping fusion reaction, this will require again huge amount of inhibitors, since rate of the reaction is determined by concentration.

Another way of "exploding" a star would be placing a black hole inside core of a star, this will lead to collapse of inner layers and exploding of outer layers.

Less violent way would be placing of black hole (or another supercompact object like neutron star) in a vicinity of target star. Supercompact object should have higher gravity to be able to attract matter from the star. Accelerating and approaching compact object matter can ignite, making nova.

But, well, black holes, in fact, are too huge amounts of matter. Tiny black holes are believed to evaporate away very fast. Quantum-sized black holes might be stable, but their effect won't be significant on an object of solar mass.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#38 - 2012-08-30 14:54:31 UTC
Please note im quite short..

Surely a large stick of dynamite would do the trick?

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........

Saxifrage Bizzaroclan
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-09-05 14:06:40 UTC
David Forge wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
When you state it like that, I don't see why not. However I think it isn't that easy otherwise we would surely see stars exploding on a regular basis. Considering that the formation or introduction of a single Iron molecule to the active process kills a star, but that is when it is synthesized, I think more might be needed to collapse a star artificially. I am sure someone would have tried it by now. Knowing minmatar ships, it would even be surprising it hasn't happened accidentally already. Especially since several of my ships have been prone to losing wingy bits. So something about warp technology must not allow for the exit out of warp within the sun. Either that or the quantity required


I am quite certain that a single iron atom would have no effect on the processes of a star. Setting aside that any given star at stage in its life is bound to have a very large number of all types of elements either through its normal fusion process (while most of the fusion will be of the hydrogen and helium variety for a normal star for most its life over time randomness will result in the fusion of larger and more exotic elements, especially iron) or from leftovers of the previous stars that provided the mass to form the star. Our sun, for instance, is 0.16% iron.

All the heavier elements that make up things like planets (metals, gases, and even up to uranium and plutonium) are the product from past stellar fusion processes. Large and/or hot stars can continue fusion all the way up to silicon and at that point iron will make up a surprising amount of the star's mass.

There's no element/molecule that we know of that could be introduced in small amounts to a star to disrupt its process in any appreciable way. Unless we want to talk about exotic forms of matter, like strangelets or something, the only way destroying a star through the introduction of outside material will necessitate just a very, very large amount something (just about anything would probably do). We're talking about a lot though. I have no idea how much or how to calculate how much iron it would take to disrupt the sun's fusion process but if it were even only 1% of the sun's mass you're talking about a lot of iron.

Again, I did some math (probably badly) and what I calculated was that a block of iron equal to 1% of our sun's mass would weigh 22 trillion trillion short tons and would be 18.5 billion trillion cubed miles in volume. That's a cube of iron 26.45 million miles on each side. If anybody plans on trying this do tell so that I can invest in mining lasers now.

EDIT: I think the reason that the hypothetical block of iron is so much larger than the sun itself is because I did not (and could not even try) to account for how the block would collapse under its own gravity and reach a much higher density (and thus much smaller volume) than normal cast iron. The actual ball (you couldn't keep it in cube form) would likely be much smaller but the above still illustrates, I hope, the gargantuan amount of material we're talking about.


Don't forget that the supernova occurs because the iron content disrupts the balance between gravity and fusion-fueled explosion at the core of the star. Excess iron reduces the power of the fusion reaction, which gives gravity the upper hand, which then compresses the core to the point where fusion can again briskly resume.

I am in no way an astrophysicist, but I believe that rounding up ungodly amounts of iron (like, multiple solar system's worth) and chucking it into the sun would just shut it off, or maybe create a cool, smaller star like a brown dwarf. Maybe . . .
Saxifrage Bizzaroclan
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-09-05 14:14:59 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
David Forge wrote:
Note: I am neither a physicist nor a mathematician.

I threw together some rough numbers just for fun, taking into account the above disclaimer it's very possible I made a mistake or two. Anyone with any real knowledge on this sort thing feel free to correct and shame me.

Assume:

1 Charon with 785,000 m3 of cargo space filled with antimatter.

Now, antimatter could come in all types of densities depending on what you make it out of, this is practically back of the napkin so I just assumed one cubic meter would contain one ton of antimatter.

I used a calculator to do the antimatter reaction energy output as I do not trust myself to do it but at 785,000 tons of antimatter I got an explosive output of 30,646,400,000 megatons. Converting into joules (again, with a calculator made by someone smarter than I) I got 1.2822454 x 10^26 joules. Wikipedia says that the energy output of the sun (a smallish star) per second is 3.8 x 10^26. So we're looking at an explosion that (let's say happened in a single second which is unlikely but simplifies the problem) would increase the energy output of a star of the same size and type as ours by almost exactly 1/3 for one second. This effect diminishes quickly if the time for the explosion to occur increases. A ten second explosion would (I'm guessing) result in ten seconds where the energy output of the star was increased by only a little over 3%.

So, after this cursory examination, I would advise the OP to find a very small star or a very large number of freighters. Alternatively, figure out Sansha wormhole technology and open one directly into or through a star. That's bound to cause problems.

Lets leave aside rate of annihilation reaction (and won't call it as an explosion, well, you know, even heaviest of thermonuclear bombs do not explode, but burn) and look at the result.
First, pressure in the core of sun is about 10^17 Pa, if our charon is filled with antimatter at pressure of ~100 atm (10^7 Pa), it will collapse like in 10^10 times, well, practically, it will become much less than 1m³.
So, at first, we will have to stretch star by 1m³ (how rude!) :D
Next, the annihilation happens. This reaction causes transformation of fermion matter (like electrons, protons, that cannot take the same place in space) to bosons (like photons). The sum of mass-energy in this reaction persists, so calculation of released energy is not important. What is important, that we take away matter from the star, making a 'hole' of size less than 1m³ (neglecting pressure of photons in first iteration, since it will be times less than pressure of fermions).

Well, returning to energy as a measure of going supernova, one should give star about ~10^44 Joules for it to cast off a layer.

Applying point of energy-mass to the star won't make any effect. Stars are bubbles of matter, even if you 'shift' say, like half of the Sun, it will return back, of course spitting some plasma and heavy radiation from the core, but still it will reorganize itself without blowing apart.

What causes stars to go supernova, is the change in the whole volume of the star, or at least in a significant amount of volume, making a whole thick enough layer.

Well, so far it turns out to be 'how to not blow up a star'.
However, there is a 'sci-fi' solution of blowing up a star. Just open a wormhole in the core of the star. This will lead to leaking of star matter through wormhole, making new star on the other side (on the other hand the matter will just be dissipating (exploding) with high velocities because of tremendous pressure inside the star). If the wormhole will be large enough to channel huge amount of solar matter, upper layers will collapse towards the emptied core, tear apart and throw matter in different directions, making supernova.


So, the Charon full of iron anti-matter would indeed end the star's life (assuming our sun, not some barely-there red giant) - seems like it would knock away enough matter to bring the star below the critical mass threshold for gravity-inspired fusion. The matter may all acrete back towards the sun eventually, but that'll take a looong time. Not a supernova, but certainly a dead sun . . . right?