These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[ECM] Imagine an Arazu locking down 4+ ships
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#21 - 2012-08-21 13:18:26 UTC
Randomize All wrote:
Most game developers think "Now you are not allowed to play" is a ridiculous game mechanic..


Of course you can play. When you are jammed, you are playing - if you are being jammed it means someone else is NOT being jammed. So take one for the team, it's only 20 seconds jeez. In the meantime you could be, I dunno, burning towards the falcon so the minute the lock breaks you are on top of him and he's in range, perhaps?
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#22 - 2012-08-21 13:19:42 UTC
Pestily wrote:


A falcon can fit 6 jammers no problem.




A falcon with 6 jammers has no tank and can be instapopped almost just by looking at it.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#23 - 2012-08-21 13:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
<---Main that flies Falcons, among other Recons.

Soooo....what did you lose OP, and can I has the rest of your stuffs?

E:

BECAUSE OF FALCON, DAMMIT!!!Twisted

E2:

"The," not "teh," by the wayRoll

Ni.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-08-21 13:26:19 UTC
I am surprised how long it lasted until someone cried about Falcons and ECM at all. Roll

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Sakura Kasenumi
Danish Vikings
#25 - 2012-08-21 13:30:40 UTC
ECM is a force multiplyer much teh same as logistics. Take away theese abilities and Eve is reduced EVEN MORE to a numbers game.

A small gang with ECM can fight a lrager force. A small gang with ECM and logistics can fight an even larger force. Send a small gang with neither against a larger force and it dies almost every time unless using such tactics as kiting.

A kiting force will destroy a larger force that can not hit it. Is that overpowered? If the defending force has ecm they can force teh kiting force to leave the field or render tehm inefective, is that overpowered?

In massive fleet fights, both sides often have ECM, taking people out of the combat, is that overpowered?

ECM seems overpowered in specific circumstances, if the enemy force has ECM adn a larger number, you will be overwhelmed fast, is that overpowered? They would probably have killed your force anyway. If teh smaller force had the ECM teh battlfield is levelled. Is that overpowered?


Think about what you are saying and look at it form other angles. If you are just but hurt because someone beat you down using ECM, that isnt a reason for it to be changed, it may be a reason for you to look at your own fleet compositions though.
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-08-21 13:31:55 UTC
Then you bring 5 ships??? Lol

James315 for CSM 8!
Harlot Hohannson
Eye on Wang Poo
#27 - 2012-08-21 13:32:16 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Randomize All wrote:
Most game developers think "Now you are not allowed to play" is a ridiculous game mechanic..


Of course you can play. When you are jammed, you are playing - if you are being jammed it means someone else is NOT being jammed. So take one for the team, it's only 20 seconds jeez. In the meantime you could be, I dunno, burning towards the falcon so the minute the lock breaks you are on top of him and he's in range, perhaps?

More stupid justifications for a broken mechanic.

Yeah right, I'll just disable the scrams and webs that are on me so I can come on over to be insta jammed by your next cycle. It should be easy since I can't lock anything to retaliate. Also not everyone flies in a gang.
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-08-21 13:34:50 UTC
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Randomize All wrote:
Most game developers think "Now you are not allowed to play" is a ridiculous game mechanic..


Of course you can play. When you are jammed, you are playing - if you are being jammed it means someone else is NOT being jammed. So take one for the team, it's only 20 seconds jeez. In the meantime you could be, I dunno, burning towards the falcon so the minute the lock breaks you are on top of him and he's in range, perhaps?

More stupid justifications for a broken mechanic.

Yeah right, I'll just disable the scrams and webs that are on me so I can come on over to be insta jammed by your next cycle. It should be easy since I can't lock anything to retaliate. Also not everyone flies in a gang.


Confirming fleet warfare is balanced around solo pvpRoll
lanyaie
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#29 - 2012-08-21 13:37:24 UTC
You don't want to fit eccm?

I understand,
You ofc want a uber tank
A prop module
Damage modules
Webs
Points
Tracking enchancers


Why use ECCM when you can get it "fixed" by CCP?



Spaceprincess

People who put passwords on char bazaar Eveboards are the worst.
Joe Hinken
Cetan Consortium
#30 - 2012-08-21 13:39:11 UTC
Pestily wrote:
Take a Megathron, add an ECCM = 41.2 sensor strength

A falcon has a 35.6% chance to jam the megathron for each racial jammer it has fitted.

The Megathron has had to give up 25% of its mids to fit that ECCM.

A falcon can fit 6 jammers no problem.


Also bear in mind not all falcons are used in small gang pvp but also used in the 10v1 scenarios so the single guy has no chance to fight back.

All the other counters to ewar have additional benefits, sensor boosters, cap injectors, tracking computers.

ECCM has no additional benefit and isn't as effective as other counters to other types of ewar.


You DO realize those jammer strengths don't stack, correct? Each of the 6 jammers has a 35.6% chance to jam, which, if all 6 are Magnetometric Jammers, gives a 93% chance of a successful jam against said Megathron.

The effects of this are twofold:

You have also wasted all of your mids jamming a single ship.
You are only going to be effectively jamming Gallente ships.

Unless you have advanced intel on what type of ship your enemy is flying, most ECM pilots fit rainbows. Additionally, as previously mentioned they have 0 tank and they also do **** all DPS.

Brick Royl > bad timing the isk is deflating fatser then a baloon in a cactus shop
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#31 - 2012-08-21 13:41:29 UTC
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
I dont think 'lock down' means the same as 'can put a damp on them'.

Also, well done for implying ecm is chance based. It is nigh on guaranteed to jam every time.


No it isn't. Your obvious lying only discredits your argument. You only notice the jamming attempts against you that succeed, not the ones that fail. As an ex-Falcon pilot I can tell you that you can in no way "lock 4 ships out of the fight". You can harass 4 ships with occasional jams or you can pretty much lock 1 ship out of the fight.

And it makes a big difference what kind of ship, too. 4 T1 frigates...? Yeah maybe you can lock four of them out. Good luck trying to keep even one Recon jammed though - an Arazu can easily keep 4 Falcons from ECMing; a Falcon stands no chance of keeping 4 Arazus from Damping. Bombers are a pain to jam also.

Sorry to disrupt your whinethread with facts. Carry on with your meretricious ranting now.


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-08-21 13:43:53 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Randomize All wrote:
Most game developers think "Now you are not allowed to play" is a ridiculous game mechanic..


Of course you can play. When you are jammed, you are playing - if you are being jammed it means someone else is NOT being jammed. So take one for the team, it's only 20 seconds jeez. In the meantime you could be, I dunno, burning towards the falcon so the minute the lock breaks you are on top of him and he's in range, perhaps?

More stupid justifications for a broken mechanic.

Yeah right, I'll just disable the scrams and webs that are on me so I can come on over to be insta jammed by your next cycle. It should be easy since I can't lock anything to retaliate. Also not everyone flies in a gang.


Confirming fleet warfare is balanced around solo pvpRoll


Confirming it is balanced...

1 fleet should beat 1 solo PVPer...

Sounds balanced...lol...

Seriously sounds like OP got gang banged and thinks the ECM was the only thing that made her lose...

OP you probably would have lost anyway. Lesson to learn: fly with friends or get better at avoiding fights.

James315 for CSM 8!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#33 - 2012-08-21 13:53:13 UTC
Stop bickering about irrelevancies like little girls and poast those Arazu fits goddamnit



.
Liaria Cullen
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#34 - 2012-08-21 14:08:14 UTC
Pestily wrote:
Take a Megathron, add an ECCM = 41.2 sensor strength

A falcon has a 35.6% chance to jam the megathron for each racial jammer it has fitted.

The Megathron has had to give up 25% of its mids to fit that ECCM.

A falcon can fit 6 jammers no problem.


Also bear in mind not all falcons are used in small gang pvp but also used in the 10v1 scenarios so the single guy has no chance to fight back.

All the other counters to ewar have additional benefits, sensor boosters, cap injectors, tracking computers.

ECCM has no additional benefit and isn't as effective as other counters to other types of ewar.


This, ECCM isnt very effective. Unfortunatly one eccm module is nothing against a falcon with 6 jammers, not to mention the possibility of there being more than one falcon, scorpions and ofc full racks of ecm drones, if someone REALLY wants you, or entire gangs of logi jammed theres really nothing that can be done to stop it atm.
Liaria Cullen
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#35 - 2012-08-21 14:14:02 UTC
Although i wouldn't say ecm is broken as much as ec-300's and falcons are unbalanced.
Brorr Liason
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#36 - 2012-08-21 14:15:33 UTC
So you don't want to fit ECCM because ECM is the only thing requiring it, then you cry because of ECM?

What's next?

Going to wine because:

Your brawler ship can't catch the kiting ship because you brought the wrong ship or not the right friends?

Your Arty ship can't kill the frigate that's circling you because you brought the wrong ship or not the right friends?

You're going too slow to catch anyone because you didn't equip a mwd/ab?

You're dieing too fast because you brought a glass cannon?

You're capped out due to nuets and you don't have a cap booster?



People fit different modules to alleviate most of the above depending on fleet setup, but no one except logi's feel like fitting ECCM. IT'S A WASTE OF A MID SLOT... WHHAAAAAAAA... I don't want to 'waste' a slot to help make sure I can use all my other slots...



Ever flown ECM boats? It is in fact chance based, unless you have under 15 sensor strength against average Falcon pilots (BB and Scorps are weaker per jam). Throw in a booster then you'll need 19 or over unless they burn. And I guess a Battleship with ECCM can get well over 19 and have the range to knock a Falcon out of the sky. Falcons also sit there for 6 seconds trying to target you and then have a crappy scan res afterward so you have plenty of chance to target one and adjust your fleet plans accordingly. Bring only brawlers? Sounds like your problem. Didn't bring your own ECM? Sounds like your problem. Didn't fit ECCM? Sounds like your problem. Didn't plan ahead in the eventuality the opponents are more organized with fleet multipliers? Sounds like your problem.


Try having a large portion of your skills in Recon 5, Signal Dispersion 5, Long Range Jamming 5, Frequency Modulation 5, Black Ops 5, etc and then having ECM not be good for the current fight and having to continuously warp away and return. Then how much are you contribution? What if you 'thought' they had x fleet but brought y fleet and now you have to warp off and equip the proper jammers if you were smart enough to bring a full load of each race? What if you think you're 'good' on the field and get blapped by the one guy you thought couldn't hurt you?

Yeah ECM is so one sided...

I understand ECM is a pain to fly against, especially if it's successful. I've been jammed many times and have had to rethink our fleet setup/plans. But it's not all cupcakes and butterflies for the ECM pilot either.



************
TLDR

Flying ECM is rarely fun.
Bring your own.
Fit ECCM if worried. (At least bring it in your hold...)
Bring some longer range ships with you.

or

Keep crying to CCP and maybe I won't be forced to fly those anymore. Either way! Big smile
Ensign X
#37 - 2012-08-21 14:19:24 UTC
Liaria Cullen wrote:
if someone REALLY wants you, or entire gangs of logi jammed theres really nothing that can be done to stop it atm.


If someone is jamming your entire gang of Logi and you're whining that nothing can be done to stop it, you should probably stop flying in gangs of only Logi ships. Protip: Bring something that can shoot the ECM when your Logis are jammed. Unless Falcons/Blackbirds/Scorpions have recently been given infinite midslots or an AOE grid-wide ECM burst...
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#38 - 2012-08-21 14:22:59 UTC
More ridiculous lies about how powerful ECM is posted by someone more interested in hyperbole than facts.
Do you work for the republicans?

Let's show you a little anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

I don't fight that much these days, but I have had my run-ins in the past.
We were a group of 5 pilots roaming around from our own wh pocket when we attacked by 6 other pilots.
Included in that 6 were 2 Falcons and a Rook. We had zero ECM with us.

Note the 3 kills below: All of their ECM ships died, one a minute.
We lost a BC in exchange.

Based on the OP's comments, we should have been wiped out since ECM always works, huh?

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=7195569
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=7195567
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=7195566
Liaria Cullen
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#39 - 2012-08-21 14:24:01 UTC
Ensign X wrote:
Liaria Cullen wrote:
if someone REALLY wants you, or entire gangs of logi jammed theres really nothing that can be done to stop it atm.


If someone is jamming your entire gang of Logi and you're whining that nothing can be done to stop it, you should probably stop flying in gangs of only Logi ships. Protip: Bring something that can shoot the ECM when your Logis are jammed. Unless Falcons/Blackbirds/Scorpions have recently been given infinite midslots or an AOE grid-wide ECM burst...


Stop trying to be a Smartarse, it looks horrible on you.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-08-21 14:27:01 UTC
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Randomize All wrote:
Most game developers think "Now you are not allowed to play" is a ridiculous game mechanic..


Of course you can play. When you are jammed, you are playing - if you are being jammed it means someone else is NOT being jammed. So take one for the team, it's only 20 seconds jeez. In the meantime you could be, I dunno, burning towards the falcon so the minute the lock breaks you are on top of him and he's in range, perhaps?

More stupid justifications for a broken mechanic.

Yeah right, I'll just disable the scrams and webs that are on me so I can come on over to be insta jammed by your next cycle. It should be easy since I can't lock anything to retaliate. Also not everyone flies in a gang.


So let me reconstruct your situation that brings you here to the forums:


  • you flew alone
  • in a ship full of tank and mods against every kind of ewar except ECM
  • then hostile(s) brought an evil Falcon...


So now lets modify this story a bit


  • you fly alone
  • in a ship full of tank and mods against every kind of ewar except NEUTS
  • then hostile(s) bring an evil Curse...


You might notice the rock, paper, scissors mechanics which you call "broken".

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance