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[Winter] Support Frigates

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Cahvus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2012-08-20 19:11:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

well no 1 ccp already said they want cruisers to be faster and more agile... so they will end up being nano any ways...

as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?

the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...

so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!

also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard off... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...


So, the thing about it is that 20km of RR range is a really big deal, especially given the fact that they're cruisers. The simple fact of the matter is that fights involving kiting can be really spread out (100s of km) and a Logi is expected to be everywhere... all the time. Furthermore, logistics don't need a RR amount nerf - as it stands a 3 RR Scimitar is not going to keep up a BC against another BC.

And ultimately, the problem you're concerned about (RR BS disappearance) has absolutely nothing to do with logistics ships. They weren't even boosted around that time. What you're seeing is the effect of BOMBS and SUPERCARRIERS. Bringing RR BS is asking to lose your entire fleet to 4 bombers.

-Liang


In addition to what Liang said I think range is even MORE important for frig gangs than for the current logis. The current logi ships are faster and more agile than most of the ships they will be repping. They have great range (71km for my badly skilled scimi) and plus they have the speed to burn towards anyone out of range, enabling them to effectively rep most anyone on grid.

In comparison, with the ~28ish max range for frigs you are setting them up for failure. Logi frigs will obviously only be mainly used for frigate gangs, and combined with the speed and tank (or lack thereof) of frigates, having a larger range seems MORE important to these new frigates than to their Cruiser counterparts. In addition, most frigates speed tank, meaning more spread out fleets of frigates and often it seems they may end up being faster than the logi ships.

Does this not sound like it would be a problem?
MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#162 - 2012-08-20 19:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: MJ Incognito
Logistics ships need to be cut back on power, not improved. I agree that extending fights is nice... but it's way to easy for one side to become nearly unbreakable especially in this counter fleet world of eve and it makes it miserable gameplay.

If you intend to continue to add more logistics options to game, you need to first take a look at the impacts of the horrible implications of fleet combat.

Right now, just with the cruisers, one tech 2 logistic cruiser can outrepair anywhere from 5-10 battleships worth of damage. That's horrible from a mechanical standpoint because it scales horribly wrong for specific sides. There's a depleted value when an enemy fleet of 80 with 20 logistics can out repair a fleet of 100-200 battleships worth of firepower. Even if you manage to provide the 10-20 specifically set up ewar ships to counter it (again, doesn't scale due to eve counter fleeting) the logistics themselves can counter fit to make it highly ineffective to waste those ship options. You're asking the other side to reduce their dps, and still suffer from an inferior counter. How does that make sense.

These frigates are basically another step towards that direction with smaller ship classes. With 2 small t2 shield transporters, a frigate will be able to repair somewhere in the range of 1500 ehp per cycle which means somewhere close to 500 dps countered with just 1 frigate and 1 gang link ship.

There should be some sort of counter to omni racial logistics besides basically 1 type of ewar-warfare that is highly race and skill specific, and does not scale effectively the way logistics do.


I really hope you consider that PvP is not fun for the "other side" when logistics are spammed and that it really is a one sided affair in game. At least back before logistics were uber powerful, there was some fun in the fact that fleet skill, and not logistics spam counted for far more value.

Personally, I'd rather see a communications jamming module added to game as a Viable option for counter logistics that basically either prevents or delays broadcasting, thus requiring more skill and tactical know-how from logistics ships in large fleets.

*in before the faggots spam stupid arguments to counter this.
Felter Echerie
Profit Prophets
#163 - 2012-08-20 19:16:37 UTC
what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :(
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#164 - 2012-08-20 19:19:21 UTC
Felter Echerie wrote:
what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :(


The Tristan became a drone boat instead.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Cahvus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#165 - 2012-08-20 19:25:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Felter Echerie wrote:
what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :(


The Tristan became a drone boat instead.



Could we get some sort of comment on rep range Fozzie? If you want a detailed rationale, look at my post on page 7 or at the top of this page!
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#166 - 2012-08-20 19:34:28 UTC
If we find that the range isn't enough it is open to possible changes after we roll out the testing. But I don't really want them to be able to sit so far away that catching them becomes extremely difficult.

Putting them right on the edge of longpoint and heavy neut range was intentional.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#167 - 2012-08-20 19:34:45 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:
t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap


Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets?

❤️️💛💚💙💜
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#168 - 2012-08-20 19:43:20 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap


Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets?




indeed i just had an argument with liang who forgot about wh space and high sec as a reason not to bring RR in line...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#169 - 2012-08-20 19:43:21 UTC
MJ Incognito wrote:

Right now, just with the cruisers, one tech 2 logistic cruiser can outrepair anywhere from 5-10 battleships worth of damage.


In order for this to be true, you would need a Guardian with 6 LRAR IIs repping someone with a large HP buffer and 96% for their LOWEST resist. What I tend to see is that a 4-5 rep Scim/Basi is going to keep a Battlecruiser up against exactly one battleship if and only if you have an off grid Tengu boosting.

Otherwise that BC is going to die.

Quote:
*in before the faggots spam stupid arguments to counter this.


It's not stupid to point out that you're just making **** up.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#170 - 2012-08-20 19:44:18 UTC
Cahvus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

well no 1 ccp already said they want cruisers to be faster and more agile... so they will end up being nano any ways...

as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?

the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...

so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!

also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard off... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...


So, the thing about it is that 20km of RR range is a really big deal, especially given the fact that they're cruisers. The simple fact of the matter is that fights involving kiting can be really spread out (100s of km) and a Logi is expected to be everywhere... all the time. Furthermore, logistics don't need a RR amount nerf - as it stands a 3 RR Scimitar is not going to keep up a BC against another BC.

And ultimately, the problem you're concerned about (RR BS disappearance) has absolutely nothing to do with logistics ships. They weren't even boosted around that time. What you're seeing is the effect of BOMBS and SUPERCARRIERS. Bringing RR BS is asking to lose your entire fleet to 4 bombers.

-Liang


In addition to what Liang said I think range is even MORE important for frig gangs than for the current logis. The current logi ships are faster and more agile than most of the ships they will be repping. They have great range (71km for my badly skilled scimi) and plus they have the speed to burn towards anyone out of range, enabling them to effectively rep most anyone on grid.

In comparison, with the ~28ish max range for frigs you are setting them up for failure. Logi frigs will obviously only be mainly used for frigate gangs, and combined with the speed and tank (or lack thereof) of frigates, having a larger range seems MORE important to these new frigates than to their Cruiser counterparts. In addition, most frigates speed tank, meaning more spread out fleets of frigates and often it seems they may end up being faster than the logi ships.

Does this not sound like it would be a problem?



no if you are out of range of rr use an interal rep... thats what they are there for ffs...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#171 - 2012-08-20 19:44:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If we find that the range isn't enough it is open to possible changes after we roll out the testing. But I don't really want them to be able to sit so far away that catching them becomes extremely difficult.

Putting them right on the edge of longpoint and heavy neut range was intentional.


Putting them in heavy neut range without the slots for a cap booster is kinda mean. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#172 - 2012-08-20 19:46:16 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap


Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets?



indeed i just had an argument with liang who forgot about wh space and high sec as a reason not to bring RR in line...


No, you had an argument where you presented terrible reasoning for a terrible nerf. I proceded to destroy your reasoning and now you're just making **** up. And in case it has escaped your attention, I've spent 2.5 of the last 3 years living in wormholes. I might just know something about it. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#173 - 2012-08-20 19:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Liang Nuren wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap


Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets?



indeed i just had an argument with liang who forgot about wh space and high sec as a reason not to bring RR in line...


No, you had an argument where you presented terrible reasoning for a terrible nerf. I proceded to destroy your reasoning and now you're just making **** up. And in case it has escaped your attention, I've spent 2.5 of the last 3 years living in wormholes. I might just know something about it. Roll

-Liang



right so thats why you chose to use supercarriers as an example... how good are they in wh space again? or bombs in high sec...

its not a terrible idea... its a great one... one that you PERSONALLY dont agree with... and using t3 bc is kinda cold as they have terribad HP and die easy...
and to this i would suggest how about we just agree to not agree because neither of us is going to convince the other that thier ideas are wrong... but hopefully we have presented reasonable arguments that ccp then can use in internal convos to better enhance the game...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#174 - 2012-08-20 19:50:46 UTC
So it's looking like FW will become even worse after the winter expansion. Griffins and logistics everywhere, no fun allowed.
MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#175 - 2012-08-20 19:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: MJ Incognito
Liang Nuren wrote:
MJ Incognito wrote:

Right now, just with the cruisers, one tech 2 logistic cruiser can outrepair anywhere from 5-10 battleships worth of damage.


In order for this to be true, you would need a Guardian with 6 LRAR IIs repping someone with a large HP buffer and 96% for their LOWEST resist. What I tend to see is that a 4-5 rep Scim/Basi is going to keep a Battlecruiser up against exactly one battleship if and only if you have an off grid Tengu boosting.

Otherwise that BC is going to die.

Quote:
*in before the faggots spam stupid arguments to counter this.


It's not stupid to point out that you're just making **** up.

-Liang


******** arguement number 1... check.

You can just look to the alliance tournament as proof of reality versus theory. You only need 3-4 large repairer and gang bonuses to do massive **** tons of reps. First of all, not everyone is a maxed out implanted dps pilot. Secondly, most BS don't go above about 900 dps in optimal close range practically and fights under those conditions rarely if ever happen. Third if you look at most fleet comps in game these days, they all center around resistance based t2/t3 fleets, or resistance bonused t1 fleets (drake, rokh, abaddon), and range above 50km... again, factoring into the reasonable damage calcs for BS pilots.... 900 dps isn't going to happen at that range.

When you start adding in the counter BS fleets, which are almost always low sig, AB fleets of some sort, their dps falls further off a cliff in most scenarios. Again requiring yet more ways to counter the logistics problem alone rather than having more reasonable counters.

So my statement is true beyond your apparently clumsy eft faggotry math.
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#176 - 2012-08-20 19:59:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Belsina wrote:
its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor

because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)

think bout it ;)


Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles.
Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
So you are saying we won't get to see a Tech 1 Khanid Kingdom ship for Amarr?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#177 - 2012-08-20 20:04:49 UTC
Vakr Onzo wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Belsina wrote:
its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor

because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)

think bout it ;)


Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles.
Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
So you are saying we won't get to see a Tech 1 Khanid Kingdom ship for Amarr?


We don't have any plans to release tech one ships made by the tech two ship producers.

Khanid faction ships would be cool, maybe someday.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#178 - 2012-08-20 20:17:22 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

right so thats why you chose to use supercarriers as an example... how good are they in wh space again? or bombs in high sec...


So, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a RR BS fleet in high sec. If you could find someone to fight with it, I have no doubt that the old master plan setups would work marvelously. In WH space, RR BS is difficult because of mass constraints and dangerous because of bombs. In low sec, RR BS has traditionally been just asking for a Supercap drop - but it might just work out these days. If you could find anyone to fight. In null sec, you're asking to get bombed.

So really, the disappearance of RRBS had literally nothing to do with Logistics. AND FURTHERMORE, Logistics were not buffed around the time that RRBS disappeared.

Quote:

its not a terrible idea... its a great one... one that you PERSONALLY dont agree with... and using t3 bc is kinda cold as they have terribad HP and die easy...
and to this i would suggest how about we just agree to not agree because neither of us is going to convince the other that thier ideas are wrong... but hopefully we have presented reasonable arguments that ccp then can use in internal convos to better enhance the game...


Fine. But do try not to talk **** for no apparent reason.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#179 - 2012-08-20 20:20:45 UTC
MJ Incognito wrote:

******** arguement number 1... check.

You can just look to the alliance tournament as proof of reality versus theory. You only need 3-4 large repairer and gang bonuses to do massive **** tons of reps. First of all, not everyone is a maxed out implanted dps pilot. Secondly, most BS don't go above about 900 dps in optimal close range practically and fights under those conditions rarely if ever happen. Third if you look at most fleet comps in game these days, they all center around resistance based t2/t3 fleets, or resistance bonused t1 fleets (drake, rokh, abaddon), and range above 50km... again, factoring into the reasonable damage calcs for BS pilots.... 900 dps isn't going to happen at that range.


There are not 10-15 battleships duking it out in the alliance tournament. In fact, the fact that ANYTHING died in the alliance tournament is proof positive that your argument is just flat wrong.

Quote:

When you start adding in the counter BS fleets, which are almost always low sig, AB fleets of some sort, their dps falls further off a cliff in most scenarios. Again requiring yet more ways to counter the logistics problem alone rather than having more reasonable counters.


This is an example of sig tanking. It's like saying that a shuttle can tank 1000000 titans of DPS. It's just not true and it's a perfect example of why damage application is what actually matters.

Quote:
So my statement is true beyond your apparently clumsy eft faggotry math.


No, it isn't.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#180 - 2012-08-20 20:21:38 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
So it's looking like FW will become even worse after the winter expansion. Griffins and logistics everywhere, no fun allowed.


I wouldn't worry about Griffins. Worry about Crucifiers. A new Crucifier will be able to take a Scorch Geddon to a 500m optimal.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.