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[Winter] Support Frigates

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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#321 - 2012-08-21 23:16:55 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots
Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 36
Cargo capacity: 280

Would this be really insane or loads of fun?

The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all


To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.

My suggestion would be:

Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers

Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets
Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)

With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones.

If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 10% it will be the exact same


ccp muppet already said no to having drones because of the skills you would need... remember these are supposed to be noobish ships... wait for a tech II version for use skilled players...


See my early comments about changing the skill requirements of the light drones. That one change will put them 4-5 days of training for T1 and T2. More than reasonable for a noob to try.
Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2012-08-21 23:22:40 UTC
Zedd Al'thor wrote:
[quote=Alara IonStorm][quote=Zedd Al'thor]


Months of training & over 2 bil replaced by 1 month of training & ~200 mil...(Not to mention, CCP makes no money on this account)


Hmm... more a pro than a contra argument for me.
Motivating people to lock in an do something should allways win. Spirit of Multiplayer Gaming.
22x Ospreys are doing the same for a bit more ISK nowadays, so Heaven will not fall upon us.

At the end, mass > quality.
If you get 22 People do something, it has to count. To be equal with 22x people by investing ten times as much ISK... is a good deal. From all the secondary nice things owning an carrier not speaking.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2012-08-21 23:23:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie should reconsider about no drones, we got shafted with the Tristan this is a chance to make up

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zedd Al'thor
Bringing Solo Back
#324 - 2012-08-21 23:38:47 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed.


Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
Zedd Al'thor
Bringing Solo Back
#325 - 2012-08-21 23:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedd Al'thor
Kraschyn Thek'athor wrote:
Zedd Al'thor wrote:
[quote=Alara IonStorm][quote=Zedd Al'thor]


Months of training & over 2 bil replaced by 1 month of training & ~200 mil...(Not to mention, CCP makes no money on this account)


Hmm... more a pro than a contra argument for me.
Motivating people to lock in an do something should allways win. Spirit of Multiplayer Gaming.
22x Ospreys are doing the same for a bit more ISK nowadays, so Heaven will not fall upon us.

At the end, mass > quality.
If you get 22 People do something, it has to count. To be equal with 22x people by investing ten times as much ISK... is a good deal. From all the secondary nice things owning an carrier not speaking.


But as it stands now, its not going to be 22 guys getting together enjoying EVE's "wonderful" PVP content, it will be 5 guys quadboxing while watching a movie on netflix because repping structures is boring.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2012-08-21 23:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Zedd Al'thor wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed.


Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.

Because logistic cruisers can't do that also, just not in 51 days
Edit actually a t1 logi cruiser would only take a couple more days than a logi frig and reps 192/s so it would only take 14. Nerf or remove them too

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Agnar Volta
Investtan Inc.
The Republic.
#327 - 2012-08-22 01:07:05 UTC
Because of Falcon,

Because of heals,

Because of blobs,

Because of Titans,

Now a new villain:

Because of goons...

EVE is bigger then your point of view. No 00 fleet will be full of logi frigs. They can be 3000 EHP, how hard is to kill that? You can instapop them with almost anything but other frig.

This is a good addition to new players, and in this case, not even Malchanis law apply. They are only good for noobs.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2012-08-22 02:05:13 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.

My suggestion would be:

Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers

Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets
Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)

With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones.

If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 10% it will be the exact same


ccp muppet already said no to having drones because of the skills you would need... remember these are supposed to be noobish ships... wait for a tech II version for use skilled players...


See my early comments about changing the skill requirements of the light drones. That one change will put them 4-5 days of training for T1 and T2. More than reasonable for a noob to try.

If the ship is setup for use with 4 drones and the 30% increase to rep amount the only skill change would be "repair drone operation" would only have to require drones I rather than drones V. The rep difference between T1 drones and T2 drones would be 97.3/s with gallente frigates iv, repair drone operation iv, and T2 small remote armor repairers. T2 Repair drone operation V, Gallente frigates iv, and T2 small armor repairers is 102.6/s. Max skills is 107/s. All the other ships repair 108/s

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#329 - 2012-08-22 02:57:55 UTC
Personally I'm excited by this proposal.

As long as CCP keep the tank on these ships at a decently easily alpha'd level, I think it will be a fantastic addition to the dynamic of frigate combat.

ECM is a really bad mechanic and is hurtful for the game imo. But these changes...

A couple of battlecruisers getting pinned down by a t1 frigate gang and devoured... well that's the beauty of this game :)

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#330 - 2012-08-22 03:04:50 UTC
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.


You cannot be serious. Logi frigs in no way replace triage Carriers.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
xxxAlloxxx
Better Off Red
Unspoken Alliance.
#331 - 2012-08-22 03:26:40 UTC
Love it, already planning how my future frig gangs will be setup.

As long as there is care taken in how these are implemented and it dos not get out of hand I think it will be a very nice addition to the game.

TetraHydroC https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=453962

In Game Chat: 420 Pub chat
Zedd Al'thor
Bringing Solo Back
#332 - 2012-08-22 04:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedd Al'thor
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.


You cannot be serious. Logi frigs in no way replace triage Carriers.

-Liang


You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making.

The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?"
& "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?"

The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers.

Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to have the afk repping power of 1 maxed triage carrier.

The point being, repairing sov structures is currently the job of triage carriers, and is it a problem that they are introducing a way to cheaply do the same job afk?

My argument can be found in these links:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#333 - 2012-08-22 04:20:37 UTC
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making.

The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?"
& "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?"

The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers.

Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers.

My argument can be found in these links:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004


No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2012-08-22 04:23:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making.

The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?"
& "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?"

The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers.

Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers.

My argument can be found in these links:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004


No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?

-Liang

Could it be that despite being cheep and quick to train it is not practical? Your statements are understood better and easier than his arguments.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#335 - 2012-08-22 04:44:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making.

The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?"
& "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?"

The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers.

Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers.

My argument can be found in these links:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004


No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?

-Liang


Have to agree with Liang on this (rare for me).

Don't forget the key difference between these and a carriers. The tank. Sure perhaps you could get a bunch of these frigs together to do the job of a triage carrier. But warp in an alpha fleet and it will be like cooking popcorn. And in a matter of moments, poof, the logi frigate menace is gone and you have an epic looking killboard to brag about :D

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.
Selaya Ataru
Phalanx Solutions
#336 - 2012-08-22 04:59:54 UTC
Zedd Al'thor wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed.


Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.


Tell me how 10.000 people shouldnt be able to rep structures.Roll

You are either a very, very bad troll, or you have serious mental problems.
Thryson
Riemannian Manifold Torus
#337 - 2012-08-22 06:38:30 UTC
T2 cloaky logi frigs would be a hell of a boost to the lacking black ops usage and might be worth looking into.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#338 - 2012-08-22 08:32:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?-Liang

Head of nail, meet hammer.

Try to run the numbers. The sheer amount of POSpreys, let alone proposed logistic frigates, needed to equal or surpass the output of a single dirt cheap triage carrier will probably make your brain explode Big smile

There is not a single entity in Eve that would use 1000 people to do what a handful can do in the same time .. not even Goons (they supposedly do stuff for lulz and POS/module repping is NOT fun by any definition of the word).
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#339 - 2012-08-22 10:01:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ryelek d'Entari wrote:
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but...

The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively.

However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead?

Here's the current list:


  • Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
  • Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
  • Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
  • Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
  • Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)


Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay.

(also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group)


Yep, those rewards have not been updated in quite a while. I'll double check tomorrow to make sure our New Player Experience team has a defect in the system for it (I think they already do).


I already have a defect on me regarding this P We definitely plan to replace the old NPE given ships by the new ORE frigate when it comes out yes.
Neotin Nahrain
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#340 - 2012-08-22 10:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Neotin Nahrain
A slight problem might be that this change is carried out at the same time as the destroyers re-balance would be.
So when everyone would be trying the new and improved destroyers defined as anti frigate platform - this would be the worst time to test t1 frigates.
I.e. - no high hopes as it is.

My main problem with this change is the durability of t1 ships. It is acceptable to be in hurricane/drake. But almost everything under that (merlin is an exception) is pretty much free target for destroyers. Same with t1 logi cruisers - they are good in logi output but the moment anything spits on them - they die.
If there were t2 logi frigates - now that would change stuff a lot more.
When was the last time we saw t1 logi cruisers in action ? Their survivability is like 50 times worse than scimitars/guardians.
And they usually cost 1/10 of their price.
Otherwise - kitsunes - best logi in frigate gangs.
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5706/scimitarfit.png
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2503/osprayfit.png