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[Winter] Support Frigates

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#261 - 2012-08-21 15:57:56 UTC
Maliatida wrote:
Frigates keeping transversal at speed at 25km+ away are not viable targets for virtually anything that you can solo in..

stopped reading at this point... there are boat loads of ships that can do this... curse. ANY DRONE boat. and so on... just because you have a fav solo frig you might not beable to take out a logi frig with does not mean that you cant... you CHOOSE not too... which IMO is not mine or CCP problem.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#262 - 2012-08-21 15:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Lili Lu wrote:
good post about local eccm.


i would try an projected eccm chain... remote eccm is alot more effective then local eccm...


like i would put on a mid slot for you longer range frigs have a remote eccm and put it on the logi ship...

i know we do this all the time with tech II logi ships and stuff so they dont get jammed...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#263 - 2012-08-21 16:03:45 UTC
Maliatida wrote:
How you should be viewing this is not as "oh cool newbies can get into new ships!" but rather "oh no vets are going to exploit the everloving hell out of these new ships," as the second is going to have more impact on the game as a whole and more of an impact on the new player experience, as they quickly realize that on top of off-grid boosters, they are facing veterans with multiple pocket healers and no viable way to lose their ship.

I genuinely cannot fathom a reason you could see this change as a net positive.


This is what I think about the new logi frigs:
- They're heavy, which leads to being slow even with a prop mod.
- They're about as agile as a brick.
- They have extremely short range RR (close enough for heavy neuts to **** your day up)
- They don't have a slot for ECCM
- They don't have a slot for a cap booster
- They don't have the fittings for fitting RRs, a prop mod, and any significant buffer.
- They have enormous sig radiuses.
- They have no real offensive power

Calling this a "pocket healer" is just a bit too much of a stretch for me to let slide. I mean, unless you think a level 1 cleric is going to do anything meaningful in a fight between level 80 warriors.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#264 - 2012-08-21 16:04:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Now for the big one. Why didn't we keep the Inquisitor as a rocket frigate so that the Khanid ships would have a tech one precursor?

This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable.
CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide.
a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships.
b) Increase the use of drones on Amarr ships and turn drones into the full fledged secondary Amarr weapon. Create some pure droneboats in the style of the Arbitrator and Sentinel, as well as more ships that have a strong unbonused dronebay as a secondary weapon like the Armageddon.
c) Attempt to do both

The choice was made to reinforce the use of drones in Amarr ships, which meant that there would not be room for a full line of missile ships at tech one. CCP would love to expand the missile capabilities on Amarr ships in other ways, but that would be a more long-term goal.

At the time that Ytterbium's blog was released discussing the summer balancing work, this was the point the design was at. The Inquisitor and Tristan were both planned to be missile ships at that point, but neither race was planned to have further tech one missile ships in their lineup. When we made the decision to create the line of logistics frigates we also decided to scrap the missile frigates for those races. It was an easy choice for the Tristan since missiles for Gallente are so minor. It was a bigger loss for the Inquisitor for sure, as I am sure we could have created an enjoyable armor tanking rocket frig out of it. But creating the logistics frigates will open up so many more avenues for interesting tactical choices and provide a stepping stone into the chain of logistics ships (which will also include revamped tech one logistics cruisers). We made the decision to drop the rocket Inquisitor and make it the Amarr logistics frigate, as the better of two good options.

This does leave the Khanid tech two ships without tech one introductions, but we believe that the ships will still provide good options for Amarr T2 pilots. The fact that individual classes of missiles are significantly faster to train to than turrets helps this situation as well. We may be able to add more missile ships in the future, but for now we do feel that the plan of expanding Amarr drone options will result in a solid lineup of ships.

I do continue to welcome all of your opinions on the subject, as everything in an MMO like eve is always able to be changed. We're here to make the best game possible in partnership with the community, and although we may not always agree on every specific point we do welcome all your feedback.


I hope you are adding t1 armor tanked missile ships for minmatar. Otherwise there aren't really any choices to have cheap armor tanked missile ships. Except for shoehorning armor tanks on Caldari ships. I was a bit dissapointed when you designed the breacher as a shield based ship. I hope you dont continue the trend. I would love to see some armor based missile ships with bonused TP.

Likewise there aren't really any t1 shield drone ships excet for gallente ships which get fitted with shield tanks, but it would be nice to see shield tanking as an more open option for gallente.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#265 - 2012-08-21 16:11:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Now for the big one. Why didn't we keep the Inquisitor as a rocket frigate so that the Khanid ships would have a tech one precursor?

This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable.
CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide.
a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships.
b) Increase the use of drones on Amarr ships and turn drones into the full fledged secondary Amarr weapon. Create some pure droneboats in the style of the Arbitrator and Sentinel, as well as more ships that have a strong unbonused dronebay as a secondary weapon like the Armageddon.
c) Attempt to do both

The choice was made to reinforce the use of drones in Amarr ships, which meant that there would not be room for a full line of missile ships at tech one. CCP would love to expand the missile capabilities on Amarr ships in other ways, but that would be a more long-term goal.

At the time that Ytterbium's blog was released discussing the summer balancing work, this was the point the design was at. The Inquisitor and Tristan were both planned to be missile ships at that point, but neither race was planned to have further tech one missile ships in their lineup. When we made the decision to create the line of logistics frigates we also decided to scrap the missile frigates for those races. It was an easy choice for the Tristan since missiles for Gallente are so minor. It was a bigger loss for the Inquisitor for sure, as I am sure we could have created an enjoyable armor tanking rocket frig out of it. But creating the logistics frigates will open up so many more avenues for interesting tactical choices and provide a stepping stone into the chain of logistics ships (which will also include revamped tech one logistics cruisers). We made the decision to drop the rocket Inquisitor and make it the Amarr logistics frigate, as the better of two good options.

This does leave the Khanid tech two ships without tech one introductions, but we believe that the ships will still provide good options for Amarr T2 pilots. The fact that individual classes of missiles are significantly faster to train to than turrets helps this situation as well. We may be able to add more missile ships in the future, but for now we do feel that the plan of expanding Amarr drone options will result in a solid lineup of ships.

I do continue to welcome all of your opinions on the subject, as everything in an MMO like eve is always able to be changed. We're here to make the best game possible in partnership with the community, and although we may not always agree on every specific point we do welcome all your feedback.
Thank you for addressing that subject, I never though to phrase it as a Tech 1 percursor. I'll be missing the Inquisitor as a rocket boat and looking forward to what CCP has planned for more missile ships in future; hoping for another Tech 1 Percursor for Khanid ships.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#266 - 2012-08-21 16:11:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
good post



as much as i hate to agree with you...

you are spot on with this...
koodos...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#267 - 2012-08-21 16:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
CCP Fozzie wrote:


This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable.
CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide.
a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships.


This statement bothers me. Like I already said, I really don't want to see EACH T1 ship class just simply be a "bigger Inquisitor/Maller/Prophecy".

I understand this is "simple", but it really just dilutes something and is gonna strip some variety.

I understand. I do.

I see the urge to do it there.

But, really, try and make each cruiser/bc/bs stand out and not just simply be a "Bigger T1 Frigate of X"

Where I am.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2012-08-21 16:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This does leave the Khanid tech two ships without tech one introductions, but we believe that the ships will still provide good options for Amarr T2 pilots. The fact that individual classes of missiles are significantly faster to train to than turrets helps this situation as well. We may be able to add more missile ships in the future, but for now we do feel that the plan of expanding Amarr drone options will result in a solid lineup of ships.

I do continue to welcome all of your opinions on the subject, as everything in an MMO like eve is always able to be changed. We're here to make the best game possible in partnership with the community, and although we may not always agree on every specific point we do welcome all your feedback.


My problem with Amarr drone ships is the following:

The first bonus is the usual +10% drone damage and hitpoints. What's the second bonus? A -10% laser cap usage bonus won't work. So what options are there?

a) Make the second bonus 5% laser damage per level. That's better, but damage types are somewhat limited and active tanking won't work due to heavy cap drain. It's also a split weapon ship... In contrast, Khanid ships are meant to give full damage type selection and allow strong active tanking because laser ships are lacking precisely in these areas.

b) Make the second bonus 5% HAM damage per level. That gives full damage type selection - but with split weapon system. Why not just make it a full HAM ship for consistency at this point?

This is as far as the Prophecy is concerned at least.

As far as the new destroyer goes, drones seem a subpar weapon system for the destroyer role. Mostly because they are slow. A drone speed bonus was found to have some problems when applied to the Maulus.

I just don't understand how drone ships can be seen as the better design path to take. Rockets & Heavy Assault Missiles make more sense given the t2 lineup and naturally complement laser ships.

Plus, who actually wanted drone ships? I've yet to see a player request that, while I've seen plenty of people that wanted to see more missle ship options in the Amarr lineup. In particular a torpedo BS is regularly requested.
Hustomte
Veritex Industrial Inc.
#269 - 2012-08-21 16:51:52 UTC
LORE is bothering me.

1) Caldari is tied closer to Amarr so missiles over drones would be a plus right? And Minmatar are closer to Gallente so them having drones makes more sense.

2) The stealth bomber is going to need to be redesigned since it can't be based off a logi frig hull.

3) Then again the Vengeance having rockets always seemed like the wrong hull to me as well...

...Signature...
Maliatida
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2012-08-21 16:52:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maliatida wrote:
How you should be viewing this is not as "oh cool newbies can get into new ships!" but rather "oh no vets are going to exploit the everloving hell out of these new ships," as the second is going to have more impact on the game as a whole and more of an impact on the new player experience, as they quickly realize that on top of off-grid boosters, they are facing veterans with multiple pocket healers and no viable way to lose their ship.

I genuinely cannot fathom a reason you could see this change as a net positive.


This is what I think about the new logi frigs:
- They're heavy, which leads to being slow even with a prop mod.
- They're about as agile as a brick.
- They have extremely short range RR (close enough for heavy neuts to **** your day up)
- They don't have a slot for ECCM
- They don't have a slot for a cap booster
- They don't have the fittings for fitting RRs, a prop mod, and any significant buffer.
- They have enormous sig radiuses.
- They have no real offensive power

Calling this a "pocket healer" is just a bit too much of a stretch for me to let slide. I mean, unless you think a level 1 cleric is going to do anything meaningful in a fight between level 80 warriors.

-Liang



-Please indicate to me a situation in which a logistics frigate would be in hostile heavy neut range.
-They are heavy for a frigate and agility will mean little at the range you will be operating at and behind heavy tackle.
-You need ECM on the field to have to worry about ECCM. ECM is not something present very often in small gang or solo situations (especially nano gangs) as you need all available DPS to hit your target and move or tackle and move.
-Cap booster is irrelevant as anyone who is piloting these will never be in neut range.
-Sig and speed tank called, they say a frigate with a signature radius of 30 is difficult to kill when they are at speed at range.
-Their signature radius is in line with every other frigate (read: small)
-Logisitics don't need offensive power? I don't even know what you are talking about here.

If you consider a pilot that is two weeks old transferring 100 raw hp a second to a heavy tackle ship with a resistance bonus miniscule, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Even assuming a terrible fit or a t1 ship with 66% omniresist, that is an effective tank of 300 paper DPS (assuming all dps is applied). With no diminishing returns on transfers, my three newbie logi set up will tank 900 paper DPS, and if I am not flying like an idiot I can tank much more (as not all DPS will be applied).

Your response will naturally be "lol just alpha through it!", which is kinda my point.

I also don't think you grasp the concept of tanking through anything other than EFT numbers (hint: paper DPS is higher than applied dps in 90% of situations)
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2012-08-21 16:53:39 UTC
I kind of hope the Prophecy and Maller do become missile boats. We don't have any T1 armour tanking missile sluggers and a RoF missile bonused Prohecy with 6 launchers vs a HAM Drake would be very interesting.
Maliatida
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2012-08-21 16:57:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Maliatida
MeBiatch wrote:
Maliatida wrote:
Frigates keeping transversal at speed at 25km+ away are not viable targets for virtually anything that you can solo in..

stopped reading at this point... there are boat loads of ships that can do this... curse. ANY DRONE boat. and so on... just because you have a fav solo frig you might not beable to take out a logi frig with does not mean that you cant... you CHOOSE not too... which IMO is not mine or CCP problem.



You heard it here, all you really need to do is that out your solo Curse and drone boats and hope you don't have to go to any small deadspace plexes, or run into anything that isn't a frigate gang with logistics.

Edit: Sorry, I'll be less pithy. Curses are not very good solo ships, and even in contexts where they can be used effectively they are incredibly expensive relative to t1 frigates. Drone boats suffer from low applied DPS to begin with and any frigate pilot who has ever fought a drone boat knows how easy it is to kill the drones.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#273 - 2012-08-21 17:02:36 UTC
Hustomte wrote:

2) The stealth bomber is going to need to be redesigned since it can't be based off a logi frig hull.


Why not?

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#274 - 2012-08-21 17:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Maliatida wrote:

You heard it here, all you really need to do is get out your solo Curse and drone boats or anything with large neuts, or ECM, or any semblance of speed to prevent a perfect transversal, or anything with light missiles and target painters, or anything with long webs, or any sensor damp platform, or......


Fixed that for you.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#275 - 2012-08-21 17:23:36 UTC
Maliatida wrote:

-Please indicate to me a situation in which a logistics frigate would be in hostile heavy neut range.
-Cap booster is irrelevant as anyone who is piloting these will never be in neut range.
-You need ECM on the field to have to worry about ECCM. ECM is not something present very often in small gang or solo situations (especially nano gangs) as you need all available DPS to hit your target and move or tackle and move.


They don't have the 70km optimal range of T2 logistics. According to the OP, they've got a T2 RR range of 28km - which means that they'll likely be in range of someone fielding heavy neuts if there are heavy neuts on the field. Assuming that they sit at exactly 28.2km the entire fight is simply foolish. Battlefields are very fluid and it will be very easy to partition the battlefield with neutralizers and other ewar. And once they smacked by a stray neut - even once - their ability to rep is harmed for a very long time (as far as frig fights go).

Furthermore, it's not like heavy neuts are the only danger here. There's an almost arbitrary number of ways to CC a logi frig out of the fight. ECM ships (and ewar ships in general) is and and always will be a threat to logistics ships. If you think it's reasonable for gangs to be bringing logi frigs, I contend it's reasonable for them to bring the newly boosted Griffin or Maulus.

But in the end, even if neutralization wasn't a factor at all, 30km is just really close for a fat slow frigate to be. There are innumerable ways for even frigates (never mind cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships) to reach out and vaporize people at 30km. I mean, without relying on everyone's newfound drone bays.

Quote:

-They are heavy for a frigate and agility will mean little at the range you will be operating at and behind heavy tackle.
-Sig and speed tank called, they say a frigate with a signature radius of 30 is difficult to kill when they are at speed at range.
-Their signature radius is in line with every other frigate (read: small)


Well, so the thing about it is that they're heavy for their ship class and thus will be very slow on top of their already terrible agility. On top of that, they don't really have the slots to fit nanos/overdrives to do anything about it. Combine this fact with the fact that they basically don't have any transversal (if AB fit) or have a battlecruiser sized sig radius (if MWD fit) and they're just a paper target sitting at range.

Seriously man, I've got battlecruisers faster and more agile than these things.

Quote:

If you consider a pilot that is two weeks old transferring 100 raw hp a second to a heavy tackle ship with a resistance bonus miniscule, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Even assuming a terrible fit or a t1 ship with 66% omniresist, that is an effective tank of 300 paper DPS (assuming all dps is applied). With no diminishing returns on transfers, my three newbie logi set up will tank 900 paper DPS, and if I am not flying like an idiot I can tank much more (as not all DPS will be applied).

Your response will naturally be "lol just alpha through it!", which is kinda my point.


So this doesn't even make any sense:
- A two week old isn't going to have the fitting or cap skills to do for any length of time.
- A 900 DPS tank is kinda meaningless when talking about frigates. They don't have the HP buffer for that to matter. I guarantee 4 DPS frigates can volley through that RR without a problem. Assuming they don't just all break off and snap up the logi kills first. What, you only want to talk about a 4v1?

Quote:

I also don't think you grasp the concept of tanking through anything other than EFT numbers (hint: paper DPS is higher than applied dps in 90% of situations)


You know, I've put out FIVE PVP videos featuring this exact concept and I've got the content (but not disk space) to make 2-3 more. But I'm sure you know more about this than me. According to Battleclinic, we live in the same area. Why don't you drop by Amamake and school me in it? :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2012-08-21 17:25:47 UTC
I would prefer the both answer for Amarr in terms of drones and missiles.

I would love to see dedicated rocket, HAM and Torpedo ships.

Keep drones with the large drone bays on the EWAR ships, where neuts take up our highslots anyway.

Have other Amarr ships such as the Armageddon have or keep a balanced flight of one set of drones.

So the Crucifier would be the Frigate Drone boat. The Arbitrator the Cruiser, and add a new 4th battleship. (The Gallente and Minmatar can get an EWAR BS too.) No need for a Destroyer or BC, EWAR/Drone ship obviously.

The new destroyer would be rockets and the Prophecy would be HAMs unless you want are planning on adding a 4th BC.

For the Amarr missiles ships you would have, the Tormentor (or Inquisitor if you flip the hulls, name wise makes sense to me), the new Dessy would be rockets, the Maller, the Prophecy be HAMs, and you just need more BS hulls to make this work. Then when you get to it, adding a 2nd Marauder with Torps would be AWESOME.

In general I would love for you to add more hulls, I know art is a bottleneck. But at each level frig, crusier, BS. I would love to see, short range, long range, alt weapon, EWAR, and logistics. With as much racial flavor as you can throw in.

A dedicated subscriber can dream can't he?(er I mean she)
Cahvus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#277 - 2012-08-21 17:27:00 UTC
I don't meant to beat a dead horse Fozzie but I seriously think you need to reconsider range. One of the most important tanking staples for frigates is their speed. If you are flying on a frigate roam there is no way you would fly in a train formation (everyone anchor on logi/fc). Because of their limited range (28km), you are putting the pilots of these new ships into a very difficult position that their cruiser flying counterparts do not have to face-
Do you:
A. Have everyone anchor within ~25 km of the logi frigates, making your fleet a perfect target for stealth bombers and simultaneously allowing your enemy to simple negate your transversal and fly parallel to your FrigTrain. Somewhat limits speed tanking because not all ships go the same speed, and everyone is anchored within range of the logi.
B. Have everyone do their normal speed tank. But wait, this is a fight, not everyone is going to be at the same optimals/ranges! This means the logi either has to turn on its afterburner (which sucks out it's cap which would otherwise be used for running reps) or their MWD (sucking even more cap plus giving them sig bloom, painting a huge bullseye on an already enticing target
C. Do your normal thing and hope everyone stays within 28km of you, otherwise tough luck for them

It's rather early for me so if anything doesn't make sense/isn't a coherent thought please show me and I will try and clarify. Hopefully the tone does not come off as rude or confrontation as that is not my intention at all. I am super excited for these new ships, I just want them to be viable and useful so that we can start educating and utilizing newer players, and welcome them into an aspect of PVP that is my personal favorite!
Themick Mccoy
#278 - 2012-08-21 17:28:52 UTC
How good would these really be though?

With these frigates, would they actually matter in a fight? Look at how the t1 logi cruisers(please look at these!) handle, they are basically a joke. I see the t1 frigates ending up going the same route unless cap usage is seriously curtailed. Another point to go along with this is that these are suppose to be a gateway into logi for newer players, or at least one would presume so. The problem there is that a new player will have a low in game skill set, and probably therefore be so inefficient at logi that they wouldn't be repping for much/running out of cap very quickly.(basically, for a newbie to actually do well in these ships, a further tweeking of the cap usage bonus may be needed)

Another thing to look at is the raw output of the rep modules themselves. These mods, even with the ship bonus, seem to be fairly weak, to the point a small number of the higher dps frigates can quickly over take the rep amount. This does however not fully take into account resists, but on frigates in general, resists wont be spectacular.

In my opinion it has a good chance of making new players shy away from logi at the onset if they get destroyed in these things, unless you guys do a little more tweeking with a low sp pilot in mind.

My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me?
Maliatida
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2012-08-21 17:30:57 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Maliatida wrote:

You heard it here, all you really need to do is get out your solo Curse and drone boats or anything with large neuts, or ECM, or any semblance of speed to prevent a perfect transversal, or anything with light missiles and target painters, or anything with long webs, or any sensor damp platform, or......


Fixed that for you.


The large neuts thing has been thrown out repeatedly, but there is really not a single situation in which a logistics ship with an effective range equal to that of a heavy neut would ever be in heavy neut range.

If your logistics is moving in with your tackle or heavy dps brawl down a battleship, you probably need a new pilot.

Scram + Web ensures nothing that the logistics pilot doesn't want near him will ever get near him. ECM, as I've said before, is not a staple of small gang or solo work. Light missiles do absolutely absymmal damage.

Sensor damp platform reduces the range at which they can repair, but again in my example you'd need to fit at least two and still have enough tank and DPS to brawl down the primary ship (can't think of a ship that would allow this).

You are listing roles of force multipliers that require multiple ships, multiple pilots, and specific ship types (some T2 cruiser hulls? Really?) to fight against what literally every single person who plays EVE could put together in two weeks of training.

You are also discounting that the majority of the ships you are listing cannot go into a majority of deadspace plexes.
Maliatida
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2012-08-21 17:44:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Maliatida
Liang Nuren wrote:
snip



I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.

Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.

You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.

I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.

What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?

Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.

Edit: And before the "oh, so it's 4v1 then", it is one operator with multiple accounts and multiple ships. The simplicity and cost of these frigates makes it so simple to set up a multibox camp it's crazy. It's why I prefaced my original complaint with the pros/cons of multi-box PVP as it stands today. Combine that with how quickly you can set these up, and you have the genocide of mining barges you saw immediately after the destroyer buff all over again. Small barrier to entry = more people doing it. More people doing it = worse for solo or small gang work.

The only offsetting thing I can imagine is making them significantly more expensive than they currently are or have a higher threshold to get into (or both). Otherwise I will never leave station without at least three RR frigate alts, just like I never leave station without off grid boosting.