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Let's Fix This Plexing Issue in FW
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Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-08-19 19:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Ferrr
I believe all of us that are really in Factional Warfare agree that the countless masses of farming alts in FW is a bad thing. I think we all agree that hundreds of gunless frigs speed tanking plexes brings nothing positive to the game. What we can't agree on is how to fix it. I've heard horrible ideas and then I have heard some bad ideas, but no real good ideas yet. Hopefully this idea is good, but I am not entirely sold on it yet. Right now I am just brainstorming, and hopefully collectively we can refine it into a good idea or agree that it's trash and move on.

So without further ado:
Change the LP handed out from plexes from a flat rate to a rate multiplied by the amount of wartargets in system. Currently for a major you get 25k LP, regardless if you are alone in system or there are 40 enemy militia members. I propose we change it so for a major you get something like 10,000(x) LP, where x = number of wartargets in system. So if there are zero wartargets in system to defend, then you get zero LP. That right there pretty much eliminates the countless gunless farmer alts. It's true someone could plex with an alt in the opposite militia in system, but the payout would be less than other activities one can partake in with two characters. This would also give greater rewards to the small fleets that plex enemey home systems, as they will now be splitting a much bigger reward.

Once number of enemy militia becomes a factor in the amount of LP we can start giving LP for defensive plexing as well. There shouldn't be any difference in LP payouts between offensive and defensive plexing, both are helpful. Since you only get LP for plexing with enemy militia in system, you are only getting LP for defensively plexing when the enemy is actively plexing you.

There should be a cap placed on the multiplier of like 10 or 15. We don't want to incentivize militias to all locate in one system. We want different corps and alliances in the militia spread out over many systems, fighting in many systems in small gangs right? Hopefully putting a cap on the LP multiplier will help achieve this or at least not promote the opposite.

So what do you guys think? Simply by making LP a simple equation instead of a flat rate we get rid of the alt farmers well at the same time increasing payouts to those in militia doing it right.
Amett
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-08-19 19:16:23 UTC
yeah fw is really a great chance for pvp or roleplaying and this massive focus on farming is not the way forward. i dont have a solution but i dont think it would be hard to fix, ccp are smart enough after all :)
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-08-19 19:17:41 UTC
Oh I forgot one thing. When plexing with zero wartargets in system you should get zero LP, but the amount the system gets contested should be double or even triple (maybe even 4x?). Militias are still going to need to flip empty systems to get get to higher tiers. Since they are getting no rewards we don't want to make it longer, it's already going to be a bit mind-numbingly dull.

I suspect militas will not want people flipping systems under their nose, especially so quickly like if there was a 4x multiplier, so send out a notification in militia chat. "'Plex' in 'System' is under attack and we have no forces in the area".
Dan Carter Murray
#4 - 2012-08-19 19:19:09 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
I believe all of us that are really in Factional Warfare agree that the countless masses of farming alts in FW is a bad thing. I think we all agree that hundreds of gunless frigs speed tanking plexes brings nothing positive to the game. What we can't agree on is how to fix it. I've heard horrible ideas and then I have heard some bad ideas, but no real good ideas yet. Hopefully my idea is good, but I am not entirely sold on it yet. Right now I am just brainstorming, and hopefully collectively we can refine it into a good idea or agree that it's trash and move on.

So without further ado:
Change the LP handed out from plexes from a flat rate to a rate multiplied by the amount of wartargets in system. Currently for a major you get 25k LP, regardless if you are alone in system or there are 40 enemy militia members. I propose we change it so for a major you get something like 10,000(x) LP, where x = number of wartargets in system. So if there are zero wartargets in system to defend, then you get zero LP. That right there pretty much eliminates the countless gunless farmer alts. It's true someone could plex with an alt in the opposite militia in system, but the payout would be less than other activities one can partake in with two characters. This would also give greater rewards to the small fleets that plex enemey home systems, as they will now be splitting a much bigger reward.

Once number of enemy militia becomes a factor in the amount of LP we can start giving LP for defensive plexing as well. There shouldn't be any difference in LP payouts between offensive and defensive plexing, both are helpful. Since you only get LP for plexing with enemy militia in system, you are only getting LP for defensively plexing when the enemy is actively plexing you.

There should be a cap placed on the multiplier of like 10 or 15. We don't want to incentivize militias to all locate in one system. We want different corps and alliances in the militia spread out over many systems, fighting in many systems in small gangs right? Hopefully putting a cap on the LP multiplier will help achieve this or at least not promote the opposite.

So what do you guys think? Simply by making LP a simple equation instead of a flat rate we get rid of the alt farmers well at the same time increasing payouts to those in militia doing it right.


no.

one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.

of course, my solution is best.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Amett
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-08-19 19:21:28 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Oh I forgot one thing. When plexing with zero wartargets in system you should get zero LP, but the amount the system gets contested should be double or even triple (maybe even 4x?). Militias are still going to need to flip empty systems to get get to higher tiers. Since they are getting no rewards we don't want to make it longer, it's already going to be a bit mind-numbingly dull.

I suspect militas will not want people flipping systems under their nose, especially so quickly like if there was a 4x multiplier, so send out a notification in militia chat. "'Plex' in 'System' is under attack and we have no forces in the area".


i agree damn good idea and maybe have it where u warp to the button instead of the beacon?
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-08-19 19:25:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Ferrr
Dan Carter Murray wrote:

no.

one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.

of course, my solution is best.


Well that doesn't kill farming, it would still be done as a quasi-afk activity that is equally as lucrative. Most people don't totally afk plexs now, every once in awhile the rats will get a lucky hit and you got hit your repper. That would just change how people farm. The rats are terribly weak, making them stronger hurts PvP within plexes. People would just speed tank them still and every so often tab to that screen kill everything on field real fast, tab back out. There are enough minor and medium plexes that farmers would still flourish with the same lucrative rewards.

Edit: Although I admit seeing guns on ships, and maybe even some T1 cruisers would be a slight improvement, but only slight. They would still be farmer alts, they would still be pve fit, and they would still warp off the second you warp in. And if you do manage to catch one, they still won't provide a good fight. I much rather have a good fight than just another number on a killboard.
Dan Carter Murray
#7 - 2012-08-19 20:13:46 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Dan Carter Murray wrote:

no.

one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.

of course, my solution is best.


Well that doesn't kill farming, it would still be done as a quasi-afk activity that is equally as lucrative. Most people don't totally afk plexs now, every once in awhile the rats will get a lucky hit and you got hit your repper. That would just change how people farm. The rats are terribly weak, making them stronger hurts PvP within plexes. People would just speed tank them still and every so often tab to that screen kill everything on field real fast, tab back out. There are enough minor and medium plexes that farmers would still flourish with the same lucrative rewards.

Edit: Although I admit seeing guns on ships, and maybe even some T1 cruisers would be a slight improvement, but only slight. They would still be farmer alts, they would still be pve fit, and they would still warp off the second you warp in. And if you do manage to catch one, they still won't provide a good fight. I much rather have a good fight than just another number on a killboard.


Who is your main again?

Also, this (not just this thread though): http://i.imgur.com/CrDa3.png

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-08-19 20:26:09 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:


Who is your main again?

Also, this (not just this thread though): http://i.imgur.com/CrDa3.png


I didn't post with my main because what militia I am in is not relevant. Pointing out alt posting, especially on a mechanic thread like this as opposed to a thread about eve politics, is always a deflect when you don't have a logical argument. I told you why you're idea is dumb and poorly thought out. You have yet to come up with a single rebuttal to anything I've said. You're only response is posting a dumb picture. Why you so mad bro? Is it because this idea kills your LP farming activities, or because it creates more PvP targets. You appear to want a bunch of PvE targets in plexes that won't be able to provide a good fight.

I am totally open and receptive to criticism, even angry stupid criticism (which is the only type a person like you is likely to provide) as long as its on the idea. You have failed to do so, and have only tried to derail the thread. We should be on the same team, trying to find a mechanic that provides the most fun for everyone. So please tell me why your idea of making plexs like mini missions with rat killing in empty systems is better.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#9 - 2012-08-19 21:08:17 UTC
There is nothing wrong on farmer alts.

After inferno more people than ever before are participating systems control war.

Farmer alts play more FW than those who just use FW as free war dec.

Farmer alts can be easily stopped if players want to do it, but as it requires undocking and jumping more than one jump it is impossible for most players.

It is about what players should do, not what CCP should do.
Cromwell Savage
The Screaming Seagulls
#10 - 2012-08-19 21:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cromwell Savage
Two options, imho....

1 - Remove the fail-tard concept of docking rights from sov in lo-sec. That way PvP (system staging/station access) won't be influenced by crap-fit, noob toon T1 frig farming alts. This is my personal choice as I absolutely loathe anything and everything associated with plexing, but it would still have "meaning" for those that wish to farm or plex "for real" - i.e. LP/tier payout level.

...and/or...

2 - Require NPC's to be killed in additon to the timer.



Until then....FW can lick my brown eye.
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#11 - 2012-08-19 21:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zen Guerrilla
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
no.

one of the best "solutions" so far is to require all NPCs to be dead. farming = done.

of course, my solution is best.

I agree with this. Even if it's you. Lol

While it would not fix all the problems FW has right now, it would instantly put a stop to all those week old plexing alts. Even if they would still manage to run minor plexes, that would reduce the number of plexes available to farming alts, would stop AFK plexing and lower the overall LP income.

And it's such an easy fix!

pew pew
Lord BryanII
#12 - 2012-08-19 22:19:55 UTC
requiring that the npcs get killed to finish the plex would have the following changes

1. Would just take an extra few days or weeks in order for the farmer to get skills necessary to do it. May see a slight drop in farmers. Overall, no major change will happen and farmers will still flee at any sign of hostiles

2. Or, you get a very large drop in farmers and that would cause a significant slow down in FW. Much harder to get systems to vulnerable and upgrade them causing war zone control to be much, much more difficult to change. This will also drastically damage low sec. With fewer numbers in low sec, FW pvp'ers will have less targets, pirates will have less targets, merchants will have less people to sell goods too, freight haulers will have less work to do. FW LP store goods will have their value increase though and hi-sec will get more populated as people flock back to missions and incursions
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-08-19 22:28:03 UTC
The main problem with farmers v pvp in FW is that the jump away when someone comes after them.

Either make it hard for them to run: Give Button Scram and Web

Or punish them for fleeing: Lose LP for warping off
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#14 - 2012-08-20 02:16:11 UTC
I think this is a decent idea. I generally plex in systems that have allot of wartargets anyway. Capturing a military complex in a busy system should pay more than capturing one in an abandoned system.

LOL at people thinking shooting all the npcs alone will really fix FW. It won't.

Shooting crosses is still just pve. It will at least balance things so that one militia doesn't have a huge advantage over the other. But its not going to fix fw. At least not if you think the the war should focus on pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#15 - 2012-08-20 03:56:34 UTC
Queue Super Chair's post:
1. Kill all rats requirement
2. Timer reset to zero

/thread
Dan Carter Murray
#16 - 2012-08-20 08:26:37 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Dan Carter Murray wrote:


Who is your main again?

Also, this (not just this thread though): http://i.imgur.com/CrDa3.png


I didn't post with my main because what militia I am in is not relevant. Pointing out alt posting, especially on a mechanic thread like this as opposed to a thread about eve politics, is always a deflect when you don't have a logical argument. I told you why you're idea is dumb and poorly thought out. You have yet to come up with a single rebuttal to anything I've said. You're only response is posting a dumb picture. Why you so mad bro? Is it because this idea kills your LP farming activities, or because it creates more PvP targets. You appear to want a bunch of PvE targets in plexes that won't be able to provide a good fight.

I am totally open and receptive to criticism, even angry stupid criticism (which is the only type a person like you is likely to provide) as long as its on the idea. You have failed to do so, and have only tried to derail the thread. We should be on the same team, trying to find a mechanic that provides the most fun for everyone. So please tell me why your idea of making plexs like mini missions with rat killing in empty systems is better.


Attacking isn't a downhill battle, it should be uphill.

Having rats f*ck your day up if you're a gunless alt is just fine with me.

It really doesn't take THAT MUCH effort to kill the rats to begin with.

Plus, you can't just look at a single part of FW mechanics. gaining territory isn't supposed to be easy. removing plexes or removing the "mini mission" is ridiculous. that makes attacking a downhill battle for gunless alts.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Dan Carter Murray
#17 - 2012-08-20 08:28:31 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Queue Super Chair's post:
1. Kill all rats requirement
2. Timer reset to zero

/thread


yes to #1

no to #2

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#18 - 2012-08-20 11:59:29 UTC
I have no problems with people farming plexes, however they should use real ships and size should matter here to reward people which have the balls to come with something larger than a nano frigate.

How to achive this? Easy:

a) Make the timer count down only if no NPC are on grid. This will force people to fit guns. While it will have only minor impact on small plexes this will have huge impact on larger ones. Therefore we need also...

b) Reduce the timer on medium and large plexes. I think all plexes should have a timer of only 15 minutes.

c) Raise the contestation effect for medium and large plexes. I should bring more to do a large plex than a small plex. Maybe you should also rebalance LP payout so that small plexes get LP halved while large gets them doubled.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2012-08-20 12:07:17 UTC
Why try to use a band-aid on a gushing artery?

Plexing is not the issue, never was, the whole damn mechanic is .. used to be the fact that it was just for honour/epeen (ie. RP food) .. now its pretty much all the changes they made, from WZC, lockouts, useless system upgrades to over-incentivization.

We asked to have our herpes cured, but apparently neglected to mention that it should not be by using a GMO gonorrhoea strain.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#20 - 2012-08-20 16:40:26 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Queue Super Chair's post:
1. Kill all rats requirement
2. Timer reset to zero

/thread



Reset to zero is bad. Some amount of a countdown might be ok. But only if there is an enemy on grid. Lots of times I will fight someone and end up in structure. If I warp off to repair (whcih is often several jumps away thanks to station lock outs) and come back I don't want the plex I just fought for to be gone.

Also resetting to zero is too draconian and will just make this blobby. Get in huge blob and keep making rounds resetting all the enemy plexes. You will no longer be able to split up a blob by having your gang split up and run seperate timers. The blob can stay together and just enter each plex unduing your work. Total reset is a bad overreaction.

Some sort of countdown can make sense. But really only after they do obvious things like - well let us know when our military complexes are being attacked.

I think the plex should start counting back say 2 or 3 minutes. It might also just count back at half speed.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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