These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

I guess Amarr FW is dead, any takers with balls?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#141 - 2012-08-23 21:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
Andre Vauban wrote:
This is not true. The only reason Caldari hasn't ROFL-stomped the Gallente as far as plexing goes is the Minmatar farmers. All of the farmers went to either Caldari or Minmatar. Just look at the VP numbers. The Gallente numbers are accurate as there is virtually no Gallente plexing in Amarr systems because there aren't any. The Caldari numbers are accurate because there is no need to plex in harder Minmatar systems when there are plenty of easier Gallente plexes to farm. The Minmatar numbers are completely inaccurate because most of the farmers plexed Caldari systems because that was really all there was. However, after the Amarr T4 push, the Minmatar VPs surged 3x to roughly equal the Caldari numbers and we got to briefly see the real power of the Minmatar plexing army. They all left the harder Caldari plexes to briefly farm the Amarr plexes until they were gone. This tells us that Caldari and Minmtar are about equal in terms of plexing power, with Gallente being about 1/3 of what Caldari plex.

The only reason it collapsed this way was because the Gallente/Caldari front has more systems, there was a more even balance before inferno, and the Gallente were able to hold a little bit of ground long enough for the Minmatar to save them. If the Gallente collapsed before the Amarr, we would see the same thing in reverse. That being Caldari owning all Gallente systems and a stale-mate on the Amarr/Minmatar front.

The VP numbers are distorted by Gallente groups like QCATS re-tagging to Minmatar to take advantage of T5 dumps (and arguably more useful LP store), while still maintaining a combat presence in Gallente/Caldari FW. For example, from your killboard in July, your best month since the Inferno patch, here are the top ten systems for QCATS kills:

Quote:
1 Nennamaila (0.3) 563
2 Akidagi (0.4) 276
3 Hikkoken (0.3) 144
4 Vlillirier (0.3) 99
5 Todifrauan (0.1) 92
6 Enaluri (0.3) 87
7 Pynekastoh (0.2) 73
8 Aldranette (0.4) 65
9 Arnstur (0.1) 62
10 Heydieles (0.3) 41


90% of QCATS kills were in Gallente/Caldari FW... but all your VP show up under the Minmatar banner. There was never any serious chance of the Gallente front collapsing because there are people there who do small scale plex PvP, who will def plex the handful of staging systems that actually matter (nennamaila, nisuwa, etc), and who have the capacity to flip the 15-30 system necessary to do a decent LP dump. With those three things, a FW front is sustainable, because the LP farmers are not really on anyones side and will not def plex (it is not just worthless, it is against their interests), so over time you naturally get what has developed on the Gal/Cal front, oscillation as each side manipulates warfare control to minimize LP sunk into system upgrades.

Edit: and to clarify, I'm not saying most of the VP come from kills, but that the killboard shows where QCATS is doing its fighting.. and you do plenty of fighting in plexes, and capping of them.

Further edit: but I will admit that it's telling that the farmers have mostly flocked to the militias that get plexes without missile boats.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-08-23 21:41:56 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Faction Warfare, where the LP store is an ISK faucet and PVP is an ISK sink.

Wrong. The LP store is an ISK sink, and PVP is an ISK faucet.


Sorry I was just trying to sarcastically highlight what other people have been seriously posting in here


What, was that a serious criticism? You're just playing with words. If the context of the amount of isk in the game, and monetary inflation and deflation, and places where isk is created out of thin air vs. destroyed -- i.e., a whole lot of **** that's not relevant to the conversation, then yes, LP stores are isk sinks (they destroy isk, and merely create 'stuff', which we are never unhappy to have more of in any economy) and PVP is an isk faucet (insurance creates isk, and the lost modules are merely lost stuff). If you want to talk about anybody's wallet, and anybody's ability to finance pvp, then the LP store is just one of many ways to acquire isk and pvp is a major way to lose it.


Yes but those situations are transfers of ISK. The LP store gets other players to transfer ISK to you, PVP is the transfer of ISK from you to other people.

Calling the LP store a faucet / source and pvp a sink is still factually wrong.

And while the LP store enables you to get an ISK transfer from other players, transforming the LPs into modules or whatever is an isk sink.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#143 - 2012-08-23 21:47:06 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
And while the LP store enables you to get an ISK transfer from other players, transforming the LPs into modules or whatever is an isk sink.

People aren't going to know you're using a technical economic definition of 'faucet' and 'sink' unless you're having a discussion in the Market subforum, or you tell them. Intuitively, people assess activities by how they impact them, not the economy, and it's not reasonable to expect them to do otherwise.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2012-08-23 22:03:16 UTC
Dynast wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
And while the LP store enables you to get an ISK transfer from other players, transforming the LPs into modules or whatever is an isk sink.

People aren't going to know you're using a technical economic definition of 'faucet' and 'sink' unless you're having a discussion in the Market subforum, or you tell them. Intuitively, people assess activities by how they impact them, not the economy, and it's not reasonable to expect them to do otherwise.

I'm not going to dumb down any definition just because some people can't see past their nose.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#145 - 2012-08-24 00:21:58 UTC
Dynast wrote:
90% of QCATS kills were in Gallente/Caldari FW... but all your VP show up under the Minmatar banner.


Actually, we get 0 VP for our work in the caldari/gallente warzone. The only reason we have any significant VP is because of our work in the amarr/minmatar warzone. Before we had our nulli excursion, we pretty much had 0 VP for our corp in the FW stats tab.

Dynast wrote:

Further edit: but I will admit that it's telling that the farmers have mostly flocked to the militias that get plexes without missile boats.


I am very interested to see what happens to the amarr/minmatar front once this imbalance is addressed, assuming there's someone left in the Amarr front at that time :)
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2012-08-24 02:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
Dynast wrote:

The VP numbers are distorted by Gallente groups like QCATS re-tagging to Minmatar to take advantage of T5 dumps (and arguably more useful LP store), while still maintaining a combat presence in Gallente/Caldari FW. .


This was my point. There was a very brief period when these number were not distorted. After Amarr flipped all thoses systems, the farmers returned. QCATS farmed like crazy because it was so easy and we could do it in pvp ships. The passive shield regen on a dual rep incursus could pretty much tank all Amarr plexs. I didn't realize how bad the npc imbalance was until I ran Amarr plexs.

The point is if you look at those mostly undistorted numbers, Minmatar and Caldari roughly accrue the same amount of VPs, while Gallente do a third of this. There is no way the Gallente could do anything against that amount of manpower except for maybe hold a few "home" systems.

.