Warfare & Tactics

Question: Do Minmatar character receive VP for plexing Caldari space? Something to consider.

I think Nulli did get countered pretty damn well by EM/Quantum cats. So hats off to those organizations really. But even taking Nulli out of the direct equation the fact they were contesting Metro bought you some advantage in numbers (because of the matari fighters who were not around to defend the staging systems in amarr space)



Those chat numbers are pretty useless - if we accept the fact that Minmatar has picked up a load of leeching alts from the other factions (who are obviously never going to be seen in battle contesting the important targets) then the reality is that Amarr had the advantage for a period of time. You guys always had the heavy side advantage (large plexes) and bunker advantage (through cap power) and you were also fighting right at the beginning of your supply line from Amarr in systems a couple of jumps away. Add Fweddit for cheap ship bulking and some seasoned commanders then you could probably have expected to grind huola and arzad alongside kourm, auga, dal, rather than trying to push for the short term cashout plan via the infinite vulnerability deal. Now sure I admit its easy to be wise after the event. But the point I'm making really in this thread is that the farming hordes were not the reason you guys lost - it was poor strategy and lack of focus on fighting where it counted in my opinion.



Well defensive plexing is more morale sapping than offensive plexing end of the day. The fact that minmatar militia was able to defensive plex its staging systems while being outnumbered in most fleets during that period is quite telling - outfits like Wolf Brigade that didn't like plex fighting don't help you guys either. But a fight over an occupied staging system is always going to be a test of attrition - one sides will is going to break first. That's where camaraderie and bonds of friendship and even pride in one's militia count.

And let me tell you something. I never saw Minmatar pilots telling us they were plexing Amarrian LP's on their alts while Minmatar pilots were fighting those defensive actions. That stuff is absolutely poisonous to morale and sense of a unified militia.



Well ultimately its a game Pinky - we all have to do whats fun and good luck with building your community in the new locations!

Ah, no. That's what Vulnerable systems are for. The Minmatar don't flip them because they don't want T5 just yet; Amarrians' farming alts can contest them from 1234% to 1235% with a clear conscience. The real cost is the pvp you don't get because you're not even logged in as someone capable of pvp. But compared to alternatives like jump-cloning to NPC nullsec and carebearing there, switching to/from a Minmatar alt at least doesn't have a cooldown timer.



*snort*. Jade's figured it all out guys. If only nobody ever had Minmatar alts, everything would be fine. There would be no cost whatsoever to absolutely everyone knowing that they're behaving like noble chumps. Every single honorable act of earning 1/16th-income wouldn't sprout any bitterness all by itself.

At least the traitors can directly steal income from the ******* farmers. Nothing else hinders them.

Well you made your choice Kuehnelt you chose to become spivs and black marketeers in a dominant Matari warzone control rather than fighting with all your strength to prevent that happening. Sure you can steal a little isk and income from your enemies and pat your wallet but your militia will have no systems, no pride and no self respect.

Isn't that really whats happened?

Is syndicate a part of fw now or something?

No, they do not. However, you can look at the historical data and see Caldari earning vp at 3x the rate of all the other militias. The Minmatar, Gallente, and Amarr were about equal. After the Amarr flipped systems, you saw Minmatar numbers shoot up. My theory is all the plexers left caldari space to farm the much easier Amarr plexs. This would mean the Minmatar and Caldari have roughly equal plexing armies and the gallente have about 1/3 of that. The Amarr used to be on par with gallente, but have since dried up.

Defensive plex? In the 36 hourse after we flipped those 40 ssytems they were already on average over 50% contested. Defensive plexing against that army of alts is crazy.

Base in the warzone? With station lockouts that is just stupid. We base in egg which is just one jump from the warzone. This allows us to actually play the game without being saddled with defensive plexing - which just feeds your alts and is clearly not as effective as offensive plexing.

You say its not alts in pve ships. Ok I will ask you the same things I have been asking other minmatar who claim this has something to do with pvp. I fully expect you will avoid answering these questions just like they did. Here are the questions many minmatar cheerleaders don't want to answer:


I will ask you the same thing I asked vordak (and now Ezzra). What percent of plexes do you think were capped by t1 frigates?

I mean we can keep using relative terms all we want. I can say "too much" of it is farm alts. You can say things like "the real war was won with pvp."

But what are the actual numbers?

Post inferno what sort of ships capped what sort of plexes for each faction. How many majors did amarr capture using a single frigate? How many majors did minmatar capture using this? Etc. I would Love to see a break down of this. Because I think it will show that over seventy percent of plexes minmatar captured were in frigates.

But before we get these actual numbers what do you think a legitimate spread would be?

I think a legitimate spread would be that minors are run by frigates and destroyers and account for at least 1/3 of the total plexes. Mediums would be run by cruisers fifty percent of the time and by afs about thirty percent and the rest can be frigate destroyers. Mediums should account for about 1/3 of plexes run. Majors Run by BSes bcs or hacs about fifty percent of the time thirty percent by cruisers and the rest smaller ships the 2 types of majors will account for about the remaining 1/3 of pelxes. I also think there should be somone scrammed or blown up in at least every other plex run if we want to call this a pvp mechanic.

That is what I think is a legitimate win. Instead I think we will find that the minmatar ran many more majors in frigates than amarr did. I think we will find that no one fought in eighty percent of the plexes run. Most plexing involves hiding from the enemy and orbiting the button. I think we will find that Minmatar ran at least seventy percent of their plexes in frigates and destroyers. Winning at this is not something to be proud of unless you are proud of your carebearing,


Now please answer some of those questions then we can talk about this being pvp. And perhaps we can talk to CCP Diagoras to see if he can give us the real numbers regarding your big win.

I'm sorry I can't tell if you are serious.

The strategy was working perfectly. The problem came when nulli abandoned the strategy and flipped systems early. Surely you are not so uninformed that you are not aware of this. They also started farming vulnerable systems instead of moving on to systems that were still contested.

I do believe the reason the stopped early was due to the bloody nose in pvp minmatar was giving them up in metro. But that really had nothing to do with whether they could continue plexing in their gunless merlins. Both sides can continue to do this and its impossible to stop unless you have a huge numerical advantage.

I appreciate your advice to base in fw space so we can be saddled with d plexing and feed your militia lp. I also appreciate your advice to never use the strategy that was working well. But I tend not to take advise from my enemies.

I have to agree, its kinda like shooting yourself in the foot then bitching that you cant walk anymore.

Also I cant believe that im agreeing with Jade on this but you really are just complaining about a problem you helped create by putting isk generation above all else. That combined with the relentless negativity coming from the amarr who bother to post here and I can see why you have such issues.

If you don't want to fully particpate in the occupancy warfare that's your choice. And guess what, nobody is forcing you to. I am just amazed at how much complaining there is from people who don't care about occupancy warfare to begin with.

In any case you are completely right. Occupancy warfare involves zero pvp when one side decides to not fight. In the hinterlands it's the gunless frigates running plexes. In home systems, when there is a concentrated effort by the attackers to take a system over a two day period, it's the defenders who stay docked up.

My theory is that the real complaint is all about access to easy isk, not pvp, and how plexing alts are disrupting that access for Amarr FW. However, nobody wants to say it directly so they start complaining about lack of pvp, station lockouts, whatever even though PVP in FW is the best it has ever been.

The point Jade and these other guys are trying to make is that if the alt plexing situation were straighted out, Amarr would still lose. They - Electus Matari, Star Fraction, Murietor Tribe, sasawong, are doing occupancy warfare for system control, not isk. They'll be doing occupancy warfare whether or not they are at Tier 1 or Tier 5. They aren't going to failcascade when things go **** up. Most of the Amarr will only do occupancy warfare if they have a chance at a higher tier payout because all they care about is easy isk. Fweddit, Nulli, WBR were in Amarr FW for other reasons and have since bailed once the prospects of easy Amarr FW isk have dried up. My guess is that Iron Oxide and Late Night are in FW mostly for pvp, but they are rooted in Minmatar FW forever since they all "grew up" in FW. So they're staying too.

Who are the Amarr equivalents of these alliances and corporations?