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Stop forcing me to wear high heels

First post
Author
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
Primary Sector
#261 - 2012-09-10 15:15:51 UTC
Sal Volatile wrote:
Xuixien wrote:

70-80% of the victims of violent crime are............ men.
Most **** victims are.......... men.
Most military casualties are.......... men.
Most people killed on the job are........ men.
The people working the tough and dangerous jobs are...... men.
Perpetrators of domestic violence are equally likely to be male or female, yet domestic abusers are only portrayed as......... men.
As much as 40% of child molesters are female, yet child molesters are only portrayed as......... men.
"Primary Aggressor" laws mean that even if the perpetrator is female, the people arrested for domestic disputes are.............. men.

INB4 B-b-b-b-b-but CEO's.


I'm just going to put a giant citation needed on these MRA talking points.


"Citation needed"? "MRA talking points"? Oh we're playing that game now. On the EVE-O forums no less. Okay I'll nibble - but just a little bit. I'm not going to handhold you through every stat, but I will post a few things for you to gander at. For further self-education, please refer to google. Since it's most likely that you will try to remain willfully ignorant to facts, I would rather you try to find those facts yourself and save me the time. Thanks! Big smile

Victims of Violent Crime
-Homicides Alone: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm
-Crime Stats; See "Violent Crime Rates by Gender" http://www.4uth.gov.ua/usa/english/trade/whstats/crime.htm

Military Casualties
-This is a no brainer and I can't really believe you're asking for a citation on it. Men make up a disproportionate number of military casualties relative to the ratio of men/women in the military.

Workplace Deaths
-See: http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0004.pdf Further reading: http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm

Men Work Dangerous Jobs
-This is another no brainer. You can look up for yourself the ratio of men/women in such fields as oil prospecting, military service, police, firefighter, garbage collection, construction, EMT, nuclear, water treatment, waste management, etc.

Now since this is a video game, and you are most likely reactionary, young, and uneducated, I don't see this discussion going further. Blink Have a good one....

Sal Volatile wrote:
Also, counterpoint: A woman posts about how she thinks that being forced to put heels on her character is sexist and promptly gets dogpiled and insulted by numerous male posters.


Your counterpoint is irrelevant. This is the EVE-O forums, and someone posted something stupid. The outcome is predictable, not because of misogyny, but because this is the EVE-O forums and someone posted something stupid.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
Primary Sector
#262 - 2012-09-10 15:18:42 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Sal Volatile wrote:
A woman posts about how she thinks that being forced to put heels on her character is sexist and promptly gets dogpiled and insulted by numerous male posters.

The first page:

1: OP
2: "this is a troll, right?"
3: "Men should get high heels, too!"
4: OP: "Post 3 isn't relevant to the subject I've dictated."
5: OP: bump
6: Marginally amusing troll poem/song
7: "Not another useless thread"
8: OP: #7 obviously hates women
9: "CCP should put flats in the NEX"
10: "It's only a game."
11: "Is this really that important?"
12: "Nobody cares."
13: "I'd like to have shoes without heels."
14: "The vehement reaction against this is telling." (what vehement reaction? Vehement apathy?)
15: "Agree."
16: "I have seen the future, and it wears heels."
17: Strange post talking about trans players and then supporting the OP and then...asking the OP out?
18: "How is having a female character crossdressing?"
19: #17 replies to #18.
20: "Did you know that high heels may improve the tone of a woman's pelvic floor, thus affecting female incontinence?" (which I believe was pasted from some web site, obviously a joke on the part of the poster)

#7, 10, 11, and 12 all had the same initial reaction I did: is this really that important? This is shoes in a game about internet space ships. The reaction wasn't one of hatred or oppression, but a total lack of caring...which was promptly interpreted as hate.

There were four posts of direct support, four posts of the "meh" variety, and it's being suggested that this thread got "dogpiled" by woman-haters.


Well friend, women are clearly oppressed due to EVE Online's lack of footwear choices for female characters. And if you don't support the OP then you clearly must not care about the oppression of women, therefore, you're a misogynist.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#263 - 2012-09-10 15:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Now that the OP has accused me directly of misogyny, I went through my own posts looking for it. This is what I found:

1) I have absolutely no problem with the OP's personal dislike for high heels, but dispute the notion of them being misogynistic. Women are not forced to wear them. In fact some women wear them because they like the appearance of heels.

High heels are bad for the wearer. Everyone should know this by now. But asserting that they're a tool of oppression used by men to make women more attractive is ignoring history, where it was previously suggested that high heels were used to make women look less graceful so they wouldn't be attractive...and then there's the fact that MEN WORE HIGH HEELS FOR CENTURIES. Today, heels are a consensual fashion choice for women. I'd love to see any sort of proof that women are forced to wear heels, or penalized for not doing so.

2) I think "-ism" (late edit: and "-phobia") words (racism, sexism, ageism, transphobia, homophobia, et cetera...misogyny falls into this group) as well as the term "privilege" are overused and only serve to dilute arguments. In this specific case, they seem to be tossed around any time the OP needs to dismiss a poster as not being entitled to an opinion. "You don't count because you're sexist." Conversations on such topics are far more productive of those words are left out entirely. A conversation about high heels on game avatars turned into a referendum on sexual politics because the OP and a couple of others continually accused all their detractors of acting on hate.

3) There would likely be a significant investment of effort on the part of CCP to change this, as illustrated by the "molded" feet of the stripped female model. It was apparently not designed in a way that it could tolerate multiple types of shoes. As I said before, "they have ships to make pretty." I don't agree that this needs to be a priority for the art team when all of the actual gameplay is in space. (something I meant to say but never got around to putting into a post: It *should* be on the list of things to change with future incarna iterations.)

4) The choice of high heels for Eve avatars is not necessarily misogynistic. I suggested that it might be the case that they did market research and got better response on avatars in heels, or that it was simply an artistic preference. Stating that it was done out of some deep-seated dislike of women is leaping to a rather far-fetched conclusion.


Some highlights of my posts:

Quote:
You're complaining because the artwork isn't according to your taste. Correction: you're angry because because you don't like the artwork.


Quote:
I could say "I really want my wife to quit her job and stay home with the kids." You might immediately assume I'm an oppressive pig who wants a barefoot pregnant wife making me sandwiches. The truth of the matter is, that was my wife's ambition, and it became my ambition out of love for her.

She quit her job last month and is happier than ever. God I'm such a pig.

Also, I'm way better at making sandwiches.


Quote:
It's all a cosmetic arms race driven by women, NOT by domineering men. Although I must confess to enjoying the show.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#264 - 2012-09-10 15:32:23 UTC
I think a shop called "Floppies Sandwiches" would have excellent sales.

It would have a deliberately casual air to it, offer wifi and comfortable seating for people to relax and hang out.

Kinda like a coffee shop, but sandwich focused. I am sure coffee could be sold too.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#265 - 2012-09-10 15:46:33 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I think a shop called "Floppies Sandwiches" would have excellent sales.

It would have a deliberately casual air to it, offer wifi and comfortable seating for people to relax and hang out.

Kinda like a coffee shop, but sandwich focused. I am sure coffee could be sold too.


It's been suggested in the past that I open up a burger place. I could get behind the sandwich shop thing though.

If only I could run a restaurant and still be lazy.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#266 - 2012-09-10 15:59:51 UTC
Perhaps running a bordello might be better if you want to be lazy.

"Floppie's Bordello" has an interesting ring to it Big smile
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#267 - 2012-09-10 16:06:50 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I think a shop called "Floppies Sandwiches" would have excellent sales.

It would have a deliberately casual air to it, offer wifi and comfortable seating for people to relax and hang out.

Kinda like a coffee shop, but sandwich focused. I am sure coffee could be sold too.


It's been suggested in the past that I open up a burger place. I could get behind the sandwich shop thing though.

If only I could run a restaurant and still be lazy.

You only need to train the staff how to make the food, not do it yourself.

Creativity is a quality not necessary for repetition and suchlike.

It is entirely reasonable that you could act the part of the floor host, and ensure the comfort and well being of the guests by mingling with them and being social.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#268 - 2012-09-10 16:37:58 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Misogyny so ingrained that they don't even realize they are doing it and get super offended if you point it out.


HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MEAN WORD !! Roll


I'm a misogynist. Me me me. I intensely dislike you as an individual, and I distrust the wimminz as a group. That qualifies me as a misogynist. Can I get a badge or something? Maybe a shirt with "this is what a misogynist looks like" written on it.

Please note that even claiming misogyny has nothing to do with hate. I don't hate the wimminz as a group, and although I don't like you, you simply aren't worth the effort of hating. The wimminz are a constant source of disappointment, and my complete lack of respect is based on things that no individual can change. Until society starts treating the wimminz as adults, instead of children that must be protected from everything, including their own foolish actions, then I say no woman is worthy of respect. That's a bit sad for the women who would otherwise be worthy of that respect, but when the excrement matches coordinates with the circular atmosphere agitator, a man is accountable for himself, a woman is not.

Also, 3/10 for trolling. You got lazy.
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#269 - 2012-09-10 17:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elshar Khandar
Elshar Khandar wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
It's pretty obvious to anyone educated reading this that both are you are very ingrained misogynists. Crying about how it's not your interpretation of the definition won't get you anywhere. Misogyny is misogyny even if the person is too dumb to realize what they are doing.


Ok, just for intellectual curiosity lets, hypothetically, say that your definition is correct (which in reality it isn't).

By your own definition you're a misandrist and a racist. Whether your intention was to insult my gender or race you have because I say you have.

So, do you accept that you're a misandrist and a racist?


I don't like quoting myself but you must have missed this, Isabel. Would you care to answer it or does it paint you in a terrible light with no logical out for you because of your flawed arguments?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#270 - 2012-09-10 17:12:01 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Misogyny so ingrained that they don't even realize they are doing it and get super offended if you point it out.


HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MEAN WORD !! Roll


I'm a misogynist. Me me me. I intensely dislike you as an individual, and I distrust the wimminz as a group. That qualifies me as a misogynist. Can I get a badge or something? Maybe a shirt with "this is what a misogynist looks like" written on it.

Please note that even claiming misogyny has nothing to do with hate. I don't hate the wimminz as a group, and although I don't like you, you simply aren't worth the effort of hating. The wimminz are a constant source of disappointment, and my complete lack of respect is based on things that no individual can change. Until society starts treating the wimminz as adults, instead of children that must be protected from everything, including their own foolish actions, then I say no woman is worthy of respect. That's a bit sad for the women who would otherwise be worthy of that respect, but when the excrement matches coordinates with the circular atmosphere agitator, a man is accountable for himself, a woman is not.

Also, 3/10 for trolling. You got lazy.

I would suggest the following rewording....
(just for dramatic result, no significant technical improvement)

Bladed spinning element of atmospheric re-circulation device
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
Primary Sector
#271 - 2012-09-10 17:24:01 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Misogyny so ingrained that they don't even realize they are doing it and get super offended if you point it out.


HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A MEAN WORD !! Roll


I'm a misogynist. Me me me. I intensely dislike you as an individual, and I distrust the wimminz as a group. That qualifies me as a misogynist. Can I get a badge or something? Maybe a shirt with "this is what a misogynist looks like" written on it.

Please note that even claiming misogyny has nothing to do with hate. I don't hate the wimminz as a group, and although I don't like you, you simply aren't worth the effort of hating. The wimminz are a constant source of disappointment, and my complete lack of respect is based on things that no individual can change. Until society starts treating the wimminz as adults, instead of children that must be protected from everything, including their own foolish actions, then I say no woman is worthy of respect. That's a bit sad for the women who would otherwise be worthy of that respect, but when the excrement matches coordinates with the circular atmosphere agitator, a man is accountable for himself, a woman is not.

Also, 3/10 for trolling. You got lazy.


B-b-b-but women are oppressed! That's why all these laws exist specifically to protect women and only women, and that's why 60% of University graduates are women - because women aren't allowed to attend school! They're oppressed!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#272 - 2012-09-10 17:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
Xuixien wrote:


Military Casualties
-This is a no brainer and I can't really believe you're asking for a citation on it. Men make up a disproportionate number of military casualties relative to the ratio of men/women in the military.


Regarding this, of course they do, women are by and large not allowed in/discouraged from infantry and front line combat roles. Likewise, women are discouraged from doing anything that might be perceived as masculine. I.e. police work, fire fighting, military roles and so on. So when they do, they end up as secretaries, or dispatchers. Positions away from dangerous activities.

The issue with **** isn't the statistics, it's the reaction to it. This society teaches women "don't get raped" rather than teaching men "don't ****". There is a huge amount of victim blaming and character assassinations that go on whenever a woman claims ****. Feminists aren't arguing that male **** isn't important, Western society laughs at male **** and makes jokes about it, when it is a serious problem. Feminists are arguing that how **** is dealt with in our society unfairly burdens women.

For example, the lesson isn't "don't **** women" it's "don't walk alone in a dark alley". The notion is that **** is somehow a unpreventable crime that strikes like lightning and some women are just less lucky than others. It gets even worse when you factor in things like alcohol, or if the rapist is someone you were involved with. I.e. A husband raping a wife is a horrible discussion to have because so many people see that as "his privilege".

Yes, women do graduate college at higher rates, yet despite this, they are still only a fraction of managerial positions, and they still make 70% of what men do even accounting for experience and education.

Please stop trying to bash women and feminist for something we aren't guilty of. Feminists don't hate men, they just want to be treated equally, and be able to walk home at night without someone blaming their **** on how they were dressed or how they look.

The reason laws protecting women and other minorities is because they are largely targeted because of who they are, and thus deserving of extra protections to counter that.

Regarding this issue, The gaming industry is largely masculine, thus most female aspects tend to be the stereotypical ones. High heels, short skirts, giant ****, etc. CCP is better about this in some regards (letting Pink for example, have a smaller chest to fit her smaller frame). The argument for having more options is a good one that I support, be it for male or female characters.

The argument for cross dressing however, I'm against as it would be used almost exclusively by trolls.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#273 - 2012-09-10 18:03:34 UTC
Paikis wrote:

Please note that even claiming misogyny has nothing to do with hate. I don't hate the wimminz as a group, and although I don't like you, you simply aren't worth the effort of hating. The wimminz are a constant source of disappointment, and my complete lack of respect is based on things that no individual can change. Until society starts treating the wimminz as adults, instead of children that must be protected from everything, including their own foolish actions, then I say no woman is worthy of respect. That's a bit sad for the women who would otherwise be worthy of that respect, but when the excrement matches coordinates with the circular atmosphere agitator, a man is accountable for himself, a woman is not.


Also, to address this, I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not, so I'm assuming it isn't.

This, is misogyny. You do not need to hate women, to be a misogynist. The definition was posted earlier, hate is only one aspect, the distrust, or dislike, of women as a whole is also misogynistic.

If you want me to point out how, why, I can, but largely you can check this against racism to see if it also fits.

Replace women with Latinos, or Africans, and see if it is racists (it is) and congrats, you've just proven yourself a sexists and misogynist.

Paikis wrote:

Please note that even claiming racism has nothing to do with hate. I don't hate the latinos as a group, and although I don't like you, you simply aren't worth the effort of hating. The latinos are a constant source of disappointment, and my complete lack of respect is based on things that no individual can change. Until society starts treating the latinos as adults, instead of children that must be protected from everything, including their own foolish actions, then I say no latino is worthy of respect. That's a bit sad for the latinos who would otherwise be worthy of that respect, but when the excrement matches coordinates with the circular atmosphere agitator, a white man is accountable for himself, a latino man is not.


See what a difference it makes?
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#274 - 2012-09-10 18:39:06 UTC
I think all MRAs and feminists should be dragged out and... um... nicely brainwashed (not my original thought, I'll leave that up to your vivid imaginations).

They are both what is wrong with this world in the inequalities of the sexes.


As a woman, the only misogyny in this thread is from the guy who may have been joking, and the OP (in the form of making us women look like morons).

I'm sick of the OP claiming misogyny where none exists. It downplays the seriousness of such behavior, and the danger it poses to civilized society.


At this time I woudl like to bring out that the OP may be a pedophile. It doesn't matter that they aren't, it does not matter that they do not fit the sensible definitions of the term. They simply are.

OP, that is what you have been doing. Its terrible, and degrades women more than strip clubs.
Kult Altol
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#275 - 2012-09-10 19:07:22 UTC
Wow, this thread is still going on.

I don't think the strip club degrades females, but the females degrade them selves.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#276 - 2012-09-10 19:14:22 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
women are discouraged from doing anything that might be perceived as masculine. I.e. police work, fire fighting, military roles and so on. So when they do, they end up as secretaries, or dispatchers. Positions away from dangerous activities.

The physical requirements for such jobs often exclude the majority of women. A firefighter needs to be able to carry an incapacitated victim out of a building. As emotionally strong as women can be, their bodies aren't as durable as ours. We are biologically better suited to dangerous, physically demanding work. it's only rational that men would dominate careers like that. Even with truly equal opportunity, more men would be selected for such jobs based on qualifications.

And yes, we do have a bit of a "protect the women" mentality that drives us to keep them in safe places. That's another aspect of our biology: we're driven to be risk-takers on behalf of our family and community in order to ensure the safety of the women and children, ensuring our genes carry on.

PinkKnife wrote:
This society teaches women "don't get raped" rather than teaching men "don't ****".

Yeah, let's propagate THIS myth some more.

PinkKnife wrote:
For example, the lesson isn't "don't **** women" it's "don't walk alone in a dark alley".

Why can't it be both? After all, I'm pretty sure both "burglary is bad" AND "lock your doors at night" are both common lessons. Sure, we'd all love to live in a world where the greatest risk of walking down a dark alley is tripping over a startled cat, but we don't. There are bad people out there. Don't afford them more opportunities than you have to.

PinkKnife wrote:
Yes, women do graduate college at higher rates, yet despite this, they are still only a fraction of managerial positions, and they still make 70% of what men do even accounting for experience and education.


Women are also less likely to work significant amounts of overtime, and they don't stay at any given place of employment as long. Because of this, women are less likely to be perceived as having initiative or they don't stay on long enough to get the same promotions and raises as men. The "gender gap" exists in some places, but it's not as wide as some numbers suggest.

Women have the obvious disadvantage of maternity. If you want to have children, you're in for some serious downtime from the office if you want to properly care for a newborn. Men are out of work for no more than a week in most cases. No discrimination is required for a woman to be perceived as being less dedicated or simply have less face-time with the person who would decide between her and a male colleague for promotion. There doesn't have to be a conscious "oh she had a baby we can't promote her" thought; her male competitor was simply there when it counted.

My father works for the federal government. He faces an opposite situation: women are directly given preference for promotions by having points added to their score on the tests they take to be considered. A minority woman in his workplace gets a full 15 points added to a grade that caps at 100. You want embittered misogyny, you should listen to some of the men who have worked in places like that for their entire career.

PinkKnife wrote:
The reason laws protecting women and other minorities is because they are largely targeted because of who they are, and thus deserving of extra protections to counter that.

I'm not sure what you mean by "targeted". If you're talking about crime, then you're wrong. The vast majority of crimes aren't about hate. **** might be the obvious exception, but I think that having a different set of laws for raping women versus raping men is just as wrong as any other sort of discrimination. **** is ****, it's a horrible thing, and the punishment should be the same regardless of the victim.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#277 - 2012-09-10 19:17:23 UTC
Kult Altol wrote:
I don't think the strip club degrades females, but the females degrade them selves.

Meh.

The strip club puts a heft enough price tag on degradation that some women will tolerate it because the alternative is more work for less pay. Still, most of the women in places like that aren't trapped; they simply don't like any alternative. If every woman were to decide the money wasn't good enough, there would be no more strip clubs. Well, not the kind most men would be interested in.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#278 - 2012-09-10 19:19:13 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
It is entirely reasonable that you could act the part of the floor host, and ensure the comfort and well being of the guests by mingling with them and being social.


Not really. I suspect I'd be far too particular about the food being offered up as "mine" to not be in the kitchen hovering over every worker.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#279 - 2012-09-10 19:35:15 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
It is entirely reasonable that you could act the part of the floor host, and ensure the comfort and well being of the guests by mingling with them and being social.


Not really. I suspect I'd be far too particular about the food being offered up as "mine" to not be in the kitchen hovering over every worker.

I believe you could accomplish that task without as much stress.

Ensure the food preparation staff are properly trained.
Run periodic spot checks, mystery shoppers, etc. Let them know this kind of thing happens, and that they will be evaluated on part by these results.

Much of the poor results we get from places is based on the preparer's mistaken belief noone really cares. This is never true, but perception can lie to an employee, making them neglect proper performance.

If they can hold themselves to always understanding that high standards brings them better rewards, they will succeed, and your business will succeed with them.

TL / DR: Good employees make good sandwiches

Oh, and since they aren't in a capsuleer pod suspended in amniotic goo flying a spaceship, they should probably wear sensible shoes.
Just sayin....
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#280 - 2012-09-10 19:36:28 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
since they aren't in a capsuleer pod suspended in amniotic goo flying a spaceship, they should probably wear sensible shoes.
Just sayin....


So I shouldn't open a restaurant themed on the fact that all employees must wear high heels?

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.