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Balancing Kiting With Brawling In One Step
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Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-08-17 04:52:41 UTC
Before the nano nerf webs had a -90% velocity penalty, now it is only -60%.

Web ranges were the same, but once you were webbed you were webbed hard. This meant that if a brawler could get a web on its target, the target wasn't going anywhere. Let's consider some basic examples.

NOTE: Since the web ranges will not be changed, if you can actually kite you won't be affected. It will however balance brawling with the l33t k1dd33s who failkite in expensive stuff they bought with a PLEX.


1. The 100mn Tengu

Normal Speed: 2500m/s
Modern Web Applied: 1000m/s
Ancient Web Applied: 250m/s

2. The Really Determined 100mn Tengu

Normal Speed: 3600m/s
Modern Web Applied: 1440
Ancient Web Applied: 360m/s

3. The F1 Army Drake

Normal Speed: 1000m/s
Modern Web Applied: 400m/s
Ancient Web Applied: 100m/s

So CCP, just change the web velocity modifiers as follows.

T1 Web -> 80%
T2 Web -> 90%

And brawling and kiting are balanced.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-08-17 04:57:53 UTC
or fly a daredevil

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#3 - 2012-08-17 05:04:27 UTC
tengu took meh jerb

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Torvin Yulus
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-08-17 06:35:09 UTC
give vindy a web range bonus

im a pubby and im proud
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#5 - 2012-08-17 07:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Well, with the Upcoming change to the Various Recon classes this should not be as big an issue, a Minmatar Recon can currently only realistically fit 2 Webs (If one would like to actually have a tank ofc) with the increase in Mid/Low numbers this should hopefully be increased to *at least* 3, which is the equivalent of an old 90.

Alternatively, Vigilant + Fed Web + Loki Links :D


I would also like to point out that this would not in any way "balance" kiting, as the whole point of kiting is you aren't in web range, obviously.

Also, whats wrong with kiting?
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-08-17 08:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Also, whats wrong with kiting?


Why brawl if you can kite? Kiting is just the superior tactic in general.

Kiting takes most of the pie currently. Some people (including me) would prefer if the pie was a little bit more evenly split between brawling and kiting.

That said the OP is terrible as it would actually buff kiting in web range to the extreme.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#7 - 2012-08-17 08:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Also, whats wrong with kiting?


Why brawl if you can kite? Kiting is just the superior tactic in general.

Kiting takes most of the pie currently. Some people (including me) would prefer if the pie was a little bit more evenly split between brawling and kiting.

That said the OP is terrible as it would actually buff kiting in web range to the extreme.


Thats only because kiting means you can actually disengage when the inevitable WTFBBQ50DRAKES turns up.

Par Example
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-08-17 08:30:31 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Thats only because kiting means you can actually disengage when the inevitable WTFBBQ50DRAKES turns up.

Par Example


Right. There needs to be more risk associated with kiting, and more incentives to brawl.
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#9 - 2012-08-17 09:45:56 UTC
A way for stronger (not saying 90% but maybe) webs to be re-implemented would be to make them the propulsion type specific. Think in ECM terms (f--- ECM btw) - the paradigm of multipsec vs racial. Something like (for the lack of a better term) fusion propulsion inhibitor i.e "amarr web" would make ships with fusion propulsion (amarr) really really really slow but would be terrible against the other three races.

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-08-17 09:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Kiting being overly dominant is a primarily a phenomenon of cruiser and battlecruiser hulls. Frigates can kite too, but it's more easily countered at the frigate level. A good amount of frigates are successful in brawling fits.

Why is this so?

10 km webs don't have the range to reach kiting cruisers & battlecruisers who can comfortably deal deadly damage from 20km and higher.

So how do we implement 20 km webs for cruisers and battlecruisers without destroying the frigate class? That's the question.
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#11 - 2012-08-17 10:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mors Sanctitatis
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Kiting being overly dominant is a primarily a phenomenon of cruiser and battlecruiser hulls. Frigates can kite too, but it's more easily countered at the frigate level. A good amount of frigates are successful in brawling fits.

Why is this so?

10 km webs don't have the range to reach kiting cruisers & battlecruisers who can comfortably deal deadly damage from 20km and higher.

So how do we implement 20 km webs for cruisers and battlecruisers without destroy the frigate class? That's the question.


Give the Cruiser sized 20km webs a 20-50 power grid fitting requirement. That should prevent most frigs from using them.

And additionally, have the speed reduction rate be based on signature as well- the smaller the sig, the less speed reduction. Note: just for these webs, not for all webs.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2012-08-17 10:49:38 UTC
Extend drone damage bonus to EWAR and other drone effects, like light webber drones.

.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-08-17 10:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Before the nano nerf webs had a -90% velocity penalty, now it is only -60%.

Web ranges were the same, but once you were webbed you were webbed hard. This meant that if a brawler could get a web on its target, the target wasn't going anywhere. Let's consider some basic examples.

NOTE: Since the web ranges will not be changed, if you can actually kite you won't be affected. It will however balance brawling with the l33t k1dd33s who failkite in expensive stuff they bought with a PLEX.


1. The 100mn Tengu

Normal Speed: 2500m/s
Modern Web Applied: 1000m/s
Ancient Web Applied: 250m/s

2. The Really Determined 100mn Tengu

Normal Speed: 3600m/s
Modern Web Applied: 1440
Ancient Web Applied: 360m/s

3. The F1 Army Drake

Normal Speed: 1000m/s
Modern Web Applied: 400m/s
Ancient Web Applied: 100m/s

So CCP, just change the web velocity modifiers as follows.

T1 Web -> 80%
T2 Web -> 90%

And brawling and kiting are balanced.



I could disagree on some of your numbers but in the end I don't think 90% webs are actually the best answer because they might be a little powerful on non bonused hulls, instead of increasing this strength why not just keep actual strenght but increase range to a full optimal of 24km instead (for T2 modules of course)?

Edit: stealth Tengu nerf thread but what about Loki? -you know the Tengu natural predator permanent MWD+LSB fit?

brb
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-08-17 11:22:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
To elaborate a bit on the concept proposed by Mors Sanctitatis.

1) The "Stasis Projector" aka the 20km 60% web meant for cruisers. Its PG requirements should be high enough to make it very difficult to impossible to fit it on frigates.

2) A stat called "propulsion signature size" (PSS) on ships. Signature size between frigs and cruiser doesn't vary enough in my opinion to use it for this purpose.

Frigates would have a PSS of around 10.
Destroyers would have a PSS of around 20.
Cruisers would have a PSS of around 50.
Battlecruisers would have a PSS of around 75.

3) A stat called "propulsion signature resolution" (PSR) on the Stasis Projector which is matched against the PSS to calculate the speed reduction of the Stasis Projector. I'll set this to 75 now.

This gives the following results when a Stasis Projector is applied:

A frigate would be slowed down by 8%.
A destroyer would be slowed down by 16%.
A cruiser would be slowed down by 40%.
A battlecruiser would be slowed down by 60%.

In other words, this is going to make life for kiters a lot more difficult. Speed mods should increase the PSS of the ship as well. Racial differences would also apply to the PSS. Ships that are built as close range brawlers should have lower PSS so that they are less affected by the Stasis Projector.


This is probably far from a perfect solution but at least interesting to explore as idea. With some refinement it might actually be be decent.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-08-17 11:33:45 UTC
Ooh... Huginn buff, me likey :)

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
School Nickname Worldmonkey
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-08-17 11:40:16 UTC
Bring more Huginns and a few Lachesis to your fight. Don't even bother trying to tackle a Talos with your frigs (I'm guessing that this is what you're struggling with).
smokess
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-08-17 11:54:34 UTC
Torvin Yulus wrote:
give vindy a web range bonus


Erm, no I like my web factor bonus thank you very much!
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#18 - 2012-08-17 12:00:55 UTC
Give webs an optimal and falloff.

75% web strength up to optimal of 5k, falloff out to 20k.

Or something along those lines...

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#19 - 2012-08-17 12:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Web is perfectly fine currently imo.

It makes tackling frigates usefull while making a true meaning for the web module : you are at range you're affected, you are out you're not. So that people can "break free" from this effect.. like a true net. It makes fights a lot better by giving fair chances to both parties.

A good example that I especially like is the 100mn tengu with this huge inertia, leaving you some chance to break free from the web if you had enough initial speed, but in the same time, you can't perform a kiting efficiently this way, and you're unable to warp out quickly if there is any problem.

I laugh when I read that a 100mn tengu can go at 2500 before heat.. In a perfect world where everyone has full snake implants and matarr boosting, perhaps. But where I live, only people knowingly distorting numbers can write that speed.

Also, it gives a purpose to sniping ships that remains useless in most situations as long as probing mechanisms are not fixed.


Edit : You can take a look at how other modules works : painting 30%, damp 20-25%, ECM 15% (average), tracking 25%... Every module is designed so that without bonuses you need to fit several to have an important effect. Why should it be different for the stasis ?

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ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-08-17 13:18:10 UTC
Take out webs, double speeds, and half all ranges. space is big, ships are fast

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