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What is wrong with Factional Warfare?
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Othran
Route One
#21 - 2011-09-26 11:24:03 UTC
Zey Nadar wrote:
Othran wrote:


It'd be fine - your faction standing would drop like a stone and you'd get booted from FW next DT.

Another moron who hasn't a clue - see why we don't need more BS threads like this? Roll


Thats cool, Ive never tried FW. Thanks for the info :)


Apologies for calling you a moron. Its just that this has all been done to death multiple times (at least 15 major threads).

Having people trying to "help" by opening yet another pointless thread tends to **** everyone off who has participated in FW for longer than a couple of weeks. Oh and doing missions isn't FW - its simply mission whoring.

Everything that needed to be said about FW has been said. Multiple times. CCP couldn't be arsed even turning up for the FW round table THEY scheduled during last Fanfest.

That's all you need to know.
Othran
Route One
#22 - 2011-09-26 11:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Generals4 wrote:
Othran wrote:
Generals4 wrote:
In short:

1) Missions, most boring missions ever made where you spend 99% of the time jumping through stargates and burning to the npc's. Remake them to reduce the travel time and increase the shooting time


From this I KNOW you don't have a clue about FW - go comment on something you DO know about mmm? Straight


Why so? Oh i do know why it has been designed this way, it's because missions always spawn in enemy territory to add more pvp but does this change the fact it's really boring? Even when you collect missions from multiple agents you end up spending more time traveling than anything else. Oh joy let's do 9 jumps in a covops T3/ SB and than kill one sector commander which takes less than a minute to travel back.

While by design the idea might sound nice, due to the ability of being able to blitz most missions in a covops it renders the whole pvp part of the design rather moot.

These missions are closer to courier missions than combat missions.

And would it be too much asked for being constructive next time instead of just throwing meaningless words?


You don't take one mission. You take 4+. Then you go shoot 4 ships and its done - that earns you 50mill+. You have no clue about this so you have no clue about anything else in FW for this is the simplest part.

NB - people like you (mission whores) are the major problem with FW Straight
Generals4
#23 - 2011-09-26 11:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Generals4
Othran wrote:
Generals4 wrote:
Othran wrote:
Generals4 wrote:
In short:

1) Missions, most boring missions ever made where you spend 99% of the time jumping through stargates and burning to the npc's. Remake them to reduce the travel time and increase the shooting time


From this I KNOW you don't have a clue about FW - go comment on something you DO know about mmm? Straight


Why so? Oh i do know why it has been designed this way, it's because missions always spawn in enemy territory to add more pvp but does this change the fact it's really boring? Even when you collect missions from multiple agents you end up spending more time traveling than anything else. Oh joy let's do 9 jumps in a covops T3/ SB and than kill one sector commander which takes less than a minute to travel back.

While by design the idea might sound nice, due to the ability of being able to blitz most missions in a covops it renders the whole pvp part of the design rather moot.

These missions are closer to courier missions than combat missions.

And would it be too much asked for being constructive next time instead of just throwing meaningless words?


You don't take one mission. You take 4+. Then you go shoot 4 ships and its done. You have no clue about this so you have no clue about FW.

NB - people like you (mission whores) are the major problem with FW Straight


Maybe you should actually read the post you reply to next time. I know damn well you're "supposed" to take multiple missions from agents. Still doesn't change the fact you still end up travelling more than shooting the npc's. On top of that your agents often send you at places very far away from each other(making it harder to maximise the travelling time efficiency because you either don't accept said missions or end up traveling across the entire enemy lowsec). You can earn isks easily and fast but it remains the most boring kind of missions ever designed.

And i'm not a mission whore, i barely do any missions anymore because they're so boring (and i never heard anyone claim otherwise) , i rather do explo to fund my wallet.
I would also add i find it quite ironic you attempt to lecture me on how to mission whore and than claim i'm one.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Othran
Route One
#24 - 2011-09-26 12:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Generals4 wrote:

I would also add i find it quite ironic you attempt to lecture me on how to mission ***** and than claim i'm one.


Othran has done 4 FW missions. I say done but they weren't as he sat there until a wt turned up. Fights ensued. I think I did 2 missions and maybe 30 plex (all with PvP fights). That was the limit of PVE for Othran in FW.

Your #1 complaint about FW was mission time. Not all the (should be) exploits regarding plex/repping/etc. Oh no, you complain about mission times - which is ludicrous given how trivial and lucrative they are.

Therefore if the hat fits then wear it. You are a mission whore. You ARE part of the FW problem.

Edit - and I note that the slang word for "prostitute" appears to have become banned during the course of this thread. It wasn't at the start mods and in most countries it is correct grammar and isn't considered any more derogatory than "prostitute".
Lugalzagezi666
#25 - 2011-09-26 12:32:37 UTC
Whats wrong with fw? Plexing, occupancy, missions, npcs... Not that it wasnt posted many many times on forums. By same people. Nothing changed. Dont think that these threads even got dev reply. And fw round table at fanfest...Sad

They dont even bother to change minor things like faction standing hit when remote repping gcc militia fleet mate or changing allowed ships in some plexes to improve pvp enviroment for low sp players that join militia. All you encounter in minor plexes these days are drams, dds... and trashers. Same with med plexes and cynas, sfis, navy caras etc.

Plexing mechanics? Its so lol, that ONE person with alot of free time /no life/ can flip systems with bunch of alts. Also if you are in bad tz, you might actually never get a plex fight. Its almost good thing that occupancy means absolutely nothing.

Npcs, well, they are unbalanced, nothing more to say here.

And missions? Fw missions are farmed nonstop with bombers or t3s, that can be catched only when pilot makes a mistake. 90% of the time they are farmed by people, whose only connection to militia is mission farming, people that never got a single fw kill, never captured/defended any plex and dont contribute to fw enviroment at all. Only thing that players actually participating in fw get from these farmers is dropping value of militia lps.

Im sure there is much more things that i forgot to say, but others probably mentioned already.





Othran
Route One
#26 - 2011-09-26 12:35:48 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
And missions? Fw missions are farmed nonstop with bombers or t3s, that can be catched only when pilot makes a mistake. 90% of the time they are farmed by people, whose only connection to militia is mission farming, people that never got a single fw kill, never captured/defended any plex and dont contribute to fw enviroment at all. Only thing that players actually participating in fw get from these farmers is dropping value of militia lps.


Sod it I have a suggestion - bubbles in low-sec. However they only work on militia.

That's for all the REAL FW players who watch yet another mission whore in a SB warping off from in-gate. Twisted
Generals4
#27 - 2011-09-26 12:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Generals4
Othran wrote:
Generals4 wrote:

I would also add i find it quite ironic you attempt to lecture me on how to mission ***** and than claim i'm one.


Othran has done 4 FW missions. I say done but they weren't as he sat there until a wt turned up. Fights ensued. I think I did 2 missions and maybe 30 plex (all with PvP fights). That was the limit of PVE for Othran in FW.

Your #1 complaint about FW was mission time. Not all the (should be) exploits regarding plex/repping/etc. Oh no, you complain about mission times - which is ludicrous given how trivial and lucrative they are.

Therefore if the hat fits then wear it. You are a mission *****. You ARE part of the FW problem.

Edit - and I note that the slang word for "prostitute" appears to have become banned during the course of this thread. It wasn't at the start mods and in most countries it is correct grammar and isn't considered any more derogatory than "prostitute".


Mission time? seriously you need to start reading what is written and not what you would like to be written. My complaint was about the design which involves more traveling time than fighting time and not the overall time needed for completion. I don't how you could have missed that part where i made it clear my concern was about the "fun" factor of the missions and not the isk/hour.

And it wasn't number 1 as in first priority i just made a list of three things that i felt needed to be fixed. The order in which i wrote them has nothing to do with a priority order, heck if anything then i would have to reverse the list as i think PVP should be the main goal of FW.

If i would be a mission whore i'd be farming them, which i'm not. It has been a long time since i used it as my main income source. I rather have less certain but more fun to earn income from low-sec exploration.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Lugalzagezi666
#28 - 2011-09-26 13:13:40 UTC
Othran wrote:
That's for all the REAL FW players who watch yet another mission ***** in a SB warping off from in-gate. Twisted


Fw guys who are really pissed off by mission farmers camp their missions with combat bombers and covops, but its hardly efficient as there are BIG numbers of missions opened by farmer alts and alts of other farmers etc. etc. So you dont even know if mission belongs to him and he can happily go to complete one of other 10 missions he/his alt accepted.

Best solution would be to connect fw lp rewards with militia pvp and plexing somehow - but this wouldnt work with current plexing mechanics as it would be easily farmable too.

Bubbles... i dont know, fw areas with high traffic are very small /5-6 systems/, so i guess it would end in same way as entry systems to 0.0. Camped by fags in artymachs, 100 bubbles + 100 ejected shuttles/drones. I dont think that many people would consider it ideal small gang pvp enviroment. Not that tengus cant fit interdiction nullifier and covops bombers would still be one of the best ships to survive bubble camps. Farmers would just need to be wiser with opening their mission at right time.

Btw there are also other things that could help fw, but lowsec and general pvp too - fixing command bonuses to only work on grid, transfering aggro from gangboosted ships to boosting ships, transfering aggresion to logistics and nerfing scs in lowsec /removed ewar immunity and unability to launch fbs prefferably/.
Othran
Route One
#29 - 2011-09-26 13:19:51 UTC
Bubbles were just a "**** it" response. In reality they'd get abused to hell and back. I can think of at least 8 ways now Big smile

I guess the real problem is "wtf is the point of low-sec?".

TBH if you want to shoot stuff then npc null is easier. Apart from having POS near high-sec for churning out carriers etc and drugs then there's no point in the place. Neither is likely to increase population.

FW has been the unwanted stepchild for years - kill it and make low-sec "worth" something.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2011-09-26 13:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Now you done it, you invoked the most hallowed FW and forced Auntie Vesh's hand (I hate having to change log-on dammit!!)

First ye olde links:
Factional Warfare: My Vision - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1236883

"OMG!" a new low in Eve! - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1501092

Then:
FW mission whoring issue is easily solved by first of all making them take longer to complete in a way that discourages the solo-bomber, secondly you want them to be risky to accept for more reasons than losing 1/10th of your ships.
- The former is done by making it a requirement for completion that the entire commander/target spawn be eradicated. They commonly contain frigs and elite cruisers which are nigh impossible to kill in a bomber in any decent amount of time.
- The latter is done by adding a mechanism within the missions whereby the enemy can force the mission to fail. It is currently possible in only one mission (The Fox Hunt) due to it being a fetch mission, get to the can first and runner loses standing + time even if he lives.
Sweeten the deal by awarding the enemy who forces a mission forfeit 5-10% of the "lost" LP, payable by his own faction for services rendered.

There, done and done.
Othran
Route One
#31 - 2011-09-26 13:44:28 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:

Bubbles... i dont know, fw areas with high traffic are very small /5-6 systems/, so i guess it would end in same way as entry systems to 0.0. Camped by fags in artymachs, 100 bubbles + 100 ejected shuttles/drones.


Heh where the hell do you go into null? Only time I ever seen that many bubbles (apart from outpost/station/POS bubbled) was in a dead-end perfect -1.0 system.

I do take your point about moving significant stuff through to a npc null area though. Bound to get ganked sooner or later.
Othran
Route One
#32 - 2011-09-26 13:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Amusingly I thought of something which might motivate people. Its very simple too.

How about a limited sov system where if you "capture" the system it shows up on maps/api as owned by the corp who "earned the most points" - and I know I'm replying to a thread that should be dead Oops

To reward that a bit you could set the repping fees on all stations in that system. You can't exclude people from stations - EVER - as that will reduce FW PvP.

"Owning corp" could give free reps to whoever they chose - within same militia.

I have no imagination at all about stuff like this but people like seeing their corp name up there. None of this seems very hard - works for outposts.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#33 - 2011-09-26 14:17:48 UTC
OP is right in that fw players have been unable to agree on very much. And what little we can agree on won't fix fw.

Yet others are right that players have discussed these ideas, and every new thread brings up many of the same points again and again.

I found a bunch of threads but can't link them for some reason.Roll

In the end CCP will have to decide for themselves how to fix it. Do they wan it to be pvp or pve? Because now they are going with both and it is clearly not working. (faction warriors do agree the current occupancy plexing mechanics need work)

I think the answer is obvious. EVE has no mechanic that provides frequent, quality, small scale and solo pvp. FW occupancy should be geared to do that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lugalzagezi666
#34 - 2011-09-26 15:19:22 UTC
Othran wrote:
FW has been the unwanted stepchild for years - kill it and make low-sec "worth" something.

No, even if its just free wardec with little bit of rp, its still better than highsec station/wardec fagotry, nullsec blobfests or lowsec piracy with smartbombing battleships on hisec gate. Npc nullsec? Maybe its close, but with annoying logistics and you are pretty much limited to nano fits to avoid bubble camps.

Othran wrote:
Heh where the hell do you go into null? Only time I ever seen that many bubbles (apart from outpost/station/POS bubbled) was in a dead-end perfect -1.0 system.

Big smile By "100 bubbles" i mean enough to cover the gate from all directions and by "100 drones/cans" i mean... actually it can be more. Anyway still enough to prevent you recloaking alot of times and possibly making you still load grid while you are taking pod express to your home station.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
...

There are many ways to fix "outsider mission farming" issue in fw. I personally would love to see more pvp based plexing mechanics, that would reward plexer with lps /no missions/. It could also provide some additional benefits for holding systems. Cant see it happening though since complete rework of current mechanics would be necessary.
So the best way probably is connecting fw mission running with pvp more firmly /i.e. make not missions blitzable by ships, that are pretty much untouchable in lowsec/.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#35 - 2011-09-26 17:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Now you done it, you invoked the most hallowed FW and forced Auntie Vesh's hand (I hate having to change log-on dammit!!)

First ye olde links:
Factional Warfare: My Vision - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1236883

"OMG!" a new low in Eve! - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1501092

Then:
FW mission whoring issue is easily solved by first of all making them take longer to complete in a way that discourages the solo-bomber, secondly you want them to be risky to accept for more reasons than losing 1/10th of your ships.
- The former is done by making it a requirement for completion that the entire commander/target spawn be eradicated. They commonly contain frigs and elite cruisers which are nigh impossible to kill in a bomber in any decent amount of time.
- The latter is done by adding a mechanism within the missions whereby the enemy can force the mission to fail. It is currently possible in only one mission (The Fox Hunt) due to it being a fetch mission, get to the can first and runner loses standing + time even if he lives.
Sweeten the deal by awarding the enemy who forces a mission forfeit 5-10% of the "lost" LP, payable by his own faction for services rendered.

There, done and done.


I think this is a bit over the top.

Really I think fw missions are pretty good. They should just give all the npcs target painters and missiles so sbs can't solo them. Other than that they don't need to be nerfed. You can still get caught on gates - including the accelleration gate.

Forcing militia to have to go to null sec or high sec to make isk is not a good thing for fw or eve as a whole.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#36 - 2011-09-26 17:37:57 UTC
here is a list of proposals that have been brought up and a short pro and con to each:



http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1564233

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2011-09-27 05:13:41 UTC
so many good ideas, i like mine though, another issue with FW is CCP and the player have to have a decent sort of agreement on what to do. i hope something is done soon, i would like to try FW one day but only if its worth fighting
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