These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Off grid boosting alts trying to evade the nerfbat
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2012-08-16 14:51:50 UTC
Sheynan wrote:

It's a "powerful type of electronic warfare" but even ECM was nerfed severely in its range to bring the Falcon much closer to the fight.


Good point. Falcons jamming from 200 km was deemed overpowered.

Yet a gang link ship that's not even on the same grid is fine according to OGB users? Next they'll be telling us the sky is pink.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#122 - 2012-08-16 14:56:54 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
So because there is almost no downside to having an OGB, at some point in near future everyone will have one.
So why don't we just remove boosting altogether and just increase all stats for the missing amount...


Is there a problem with all fleets having a booster?


Quote:
Boosting from an off-grid spot is just too much of a no-brainer to be kept in the game.


But you, nor anyone else, have not given a single reason why.

Quote:

But they fill the same purpose of being a force multiplier that is not a direct damage dealing ship and as such there is no reason to treat them any different when it comes to changing them.


Except they don't fill the same purpose. All gang links do is boost the fleet's basic stats, like tank, mobility, sensor strength and tackle range, they don't do anything like jam ships or repair armor. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand.





.
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#123 - 2012-08-16 15:01:35 UTC
My suggestion for rebalancing:

-Swap the T3/Fleet Command Ship bonus to ganglinks.
-Create a sig bloom for active ganglinks, as on an MWD. Perhaps 500% to begin with, so that offgrid boosters can be probed down more easily.
-Block boosting within POS shields.

Solves the problem of ganglink invulnerability, makes fleet command ships more viable, doesn't nerf T3s into the ground, and uses mechanisms that already exist within the game, which should hopefully make it cheap and easy to implement.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#124 - 2012-08-16 15:11:42 UTC
Roime wrote:


Is there a problem with all fleets having a booster?


If everyone has one what would be the point of having gang links at all ?


Quote:

Except they don't fill the same purpose. All gang links do is boost the fleet's basic stats, like tank, mobility, sensor strength and tackle range, they don't do anything like jam ships or repair armor. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

Of course they do, take a boosting legion for example. The rapid repair gang link alone boosts every guadian in the fleet by 50%, so if you fly with 4 guardians...swoosh suddenly you have effectively 6.
And this is just one link. With all armor links you can almost double the total defenses of any guardian fleet.


And this kind of power increase that is done by just one ship multiboxed on a safespot somewhere has to be in more danger for the amount it changes the outcome of fights, thus ongrid.
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#125 - 2012-08-16 15:12:43 UTC
Or really easily probeable.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2012-08-16 15:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
My suggestion for rebalancing:

-Create a sig bloom for active gang links


So you're proposing to nerf on grid boosting in order to balance off grid boosting?

Aside from this not making any sense, it's just another attempt at compromise. There is no room for compromises. Zero tollerance is the only acceptable policy.

It's along the lines of "off grid ECM would be fine if the Falcon was easily probable". In other words, complete and utter bullshit.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#127 - 2012-08-16 15:14:58 UTC
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
My suggestion for rebalancing:

-Swap the T3/Fleet Command Ship bonus to ganglinks.
-Create a sig bloom for active ganglinks, as on an MWD. Perhaps 500% to begin with, so that offgrid boosters can be probed down more easily.
-Block boosting within POS shields.

Solves the problem of ganglink invulnerability, makes fleet command ships more viable, doesn't nerf T3s into the ground, and uses mechanisms that already exist within the game, which should hopefully make it cheap and easy to implement.


These make sense to me. I do think that unprobeability without full Virtue set is a bit lame, and changing this would promote more active gameplay on both sides. Maybe they could still be used from a POS, however, just to provide a little bit of home field advantage for defenders.

Anyway, I think the whole issue is a little bit blown out of proportion. I use my link alt mostly to make sleeper ops smoother, but the links are not so super awesome that I could be arsed to drag the link alt everywhere I go. It's much chiller just to fly out without and look for trouble.



.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#128 - 2012-08-16 15:18:44 UTC
Sheynan wrote:
Roime wrote:


Is there a problem with all fleets having a booster?


If everyone has one what would be the point of having gang links at all ?


Quote:

Except they don't fill the same purpose. All gang links do is boost the fleet's basic stats, like tank, mobility, sensor strength and tackle range, they don't do anything like jam ships or repair armor. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

Of course they do, take a boosting legion for example. The rapid repair gang link alone boosts every guadian in the fleet by 50%, so if you fly with 4 guardians...swoosh suddenly you have effectively 6.
And this is just one link. With all armor links you can almost double the total defenses of any guardian fleet.


And this kind of power increase that is done by just one ship multiboxed on a safespot somewhere has to be in more danger for the amount it changes the outcome of fights, thus ongrid.



No, you still have effectively only 4 Guardians, and the exact same amount of remote repairers. They just rep more and use less cap.

.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2012-08-16 15:32:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
Why not instead of nerfing off-grid boosting, increase the incentive to put them on-grid?
Because between choosing to risk losing the ship and its fleet-wide benefits (for a damnation, that can easily equate to millions of HP on the field across even a small subcap fleet) and not having those benefits go away three seconds into the fight, anyone with a bit of sense will choose the latter.

You'll have to take into consideration that these are prime targets that will be evaporated once the numbers go up. The on-grid benefits would have to be ridiculously large to outweigh that and that completely breaks them at the lower-end of the fleet size spectrum.

brain-barf edit: …in fact, in a sense, if you'd want to go that way, the solution would probably have to be rather backwards: you reduce the boost they give overall so that losing one won't make that much difference, but then we immediately go into “so why bring one?” territory. I suppose you could fix that issue by making them generally appealing to fly for anyone, even the fleet CSes, so that the actual boosters can hide in the crowd of all those other people flying the same ship, only those others have filled up all their highs with tons of weaponry instead of command modules.

I agree with you in this overall. Problem is the invulnerability of the current off grid boosters. I have always pictured Command Ships being just that. COMMAND SHIPS. They provide fleets with extra benefits and thus in order to retain those benefits they should be protected more by ECM and Logi ships in the fleet.

The primary problem right now is that fleet booster ships are never actually IN the fleet or a part of the fight. They are an invisible and invulnerable unknown entity providing a tactical advantage. The bigger the fleet the more advantage the booster provides and the more unbalanced it becomes.

It's a double edged sword...and there is no easy fix.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#130 - 2012-08-16 15:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Roime wrote:


But I ask again, is having a cloaked scout also wrong? It provides way more tangible benefits, and is completely indestructible?



Why not just use all in one?

[Tengu, personal assistant]

Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
'Aura' Warp Core Stabilizer I

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Prototype ECCM Gravimetric Sensor Cluster
Prototype ECCM Gravimetric Sensor Cluster
Prototype ECCM Gravimetric Sensor Cluster

Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding II
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I

Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier

Garnish with a talon set (omega not required for an 1:1 sig radius/sensor strength ratio), 3 poteque implants for better probing and a warfare mindlink to your liking and there you go: Next to unprobable, warpcore stabbed, interdiction nullified Cov Ops cloaked bonused prober with 4 warfare links - the tank is a little thin, but far better than my Anathema's and actually, it's easier to fly thanks to the interdiction nullifier - not sure if it's required - only lost an Anathema once to a smartbombing BS at a gate.

Considering it took me 5 minutes to throw that fit together and people can certainly do better than that, things like the above fit are totally fubar and should never have been possible.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#131 - 2012-08-16 15:44:36 UTC
Roime wrote:


No, you still have effectively only 4 Guardians, and the exact same amount of remote repairers. They just rep more and use less cap.




I'm sorry you don't effectively have 6 guardians you have the effective repping power of 6 guardians without risking two of them in the fight Roll
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#132 - 2012-08-16 15:49:34 UTC
Nice fit, but you need the Virtue set and another grav cap rig to probe out unprobeable OGBs!

:D

.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#133 - 2012-08-16 16:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Roime wrote:
Nice fit, but you need the Virtue set and another grav cap rig to probe out unprobeable OGBs!

:D




It would be possible to do that - however it requires faction co-processors, the ability to hit dscan due to being a tad more probable (this one appears to be exceptionally hard for some offgrid-boosting heroes) and enough situational awareness to not constantly run from your own probes =).
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Jean Luc Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2012-08-16 20:38:19 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Roime wrote:


But I ask again, is having a cloaked scout also wrong? It provides way more tangible benefits, and is completely indestructible?



Why not just use all in one?

[Tengu, personal assistant]

Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
'Aura' Warp Core Stabilizer I

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Prototype ECCM Gravimetric Sensor Cluster
Prototype ECCM Gravimetric Sensor Cluster
Prototype ECCM Gravimetric Sensor Cluster

Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding II
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I

Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier

Garnish with a talon set (omega not required for an 1:1 sig radius/sensor strength ratio), 3 poteque implants for better probing and a warfare mindlink to your liking and there you go: Next to unprobable, warpcore stabbed, interdiction nullified Cov Ops cloaked bonused prober with 4 warfare links - the tank is a little thin, but far better than my Anathema's and actually, it's easier to fly thanks to the interdiction nullifier - not sure if it's required - only lost an Anathema once to a smartbombing BS at a gate.

Considering it took me 5 minutes to throw that fit together and people can certainly do better than that, things like the above fit are totally fubar and should never have been possible.



lol - that fit would never work ongrid - get a boosting alt and learn how to do it, noob.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-08-16 21:19:10 UTC
Jean Luc ****** wrote:

lol - that fit would never work ongrid - get a boosting alt and learn how to do it, noob.


Good advice and a fitting name.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Cadfael Maelgwyn
Doomheim
#136 - 2012-08-16 21:21:00 UTC
Jean Luc ****** wrote:
lol - that fit would never work ongrid - get a boosting alt and learn how to do it, noob.

I sense a name change in your future.

May I present the future Gallente Citizen 909086838341!!!!!
Jean Luc Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2012-08-16 21:36:17 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Jean Luc ****** wrote:

lol - that fit would never work ongrid - get a boosting alt and learn how to do it, noob.


Good advice and a fitting name.



I made the name for fun. Its still a total dumbass noob-fit that would never work on grid or afk. Get a life and train you're own.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#138 - 2012-08-16 23:03:08 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:

I agree with you in this overall. Problem is the invulnerability of the current off grid boosters. I have always pictured Command Ships being just that. COMMAND SHIPS. They provide fleets with extra benefits and thus in order to retain those benefits they should be protected more by ECM and Logi ships in the fleet.

The primary problem right now is that fleet booster ships are never actually IN the fleet or a part of the fight. They are an invisible and invulnerable unknown entity providing a tactical advantage. The bigger the fleet the more advantage the booster provides and the more unbalanced it becomes.

It's a double edged sword...and there is no easy fix.


So you think that COMMAND SHIPS should only be viable in massive blobs? I can't say that I agree. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Katalci
Kismesis
#139 - 2012-08-16 23:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Andski wrote:
Katalci wrote:
I have a cleaner, more simple solution: Buff active-tanking modules to be as effective as they are with ganglinks currently, but make ganglinks not affect local tanks.


pretty sure that most of the complaints towards off-grid boosting are w/r/t off-grid skirmish-boosting lokis rather than legions/tengus running tanking links

I could be wrong, though

Irrelevant; you can fit a nano-Loki to work on-grid with 3 links if a Claymore is too slow. It goes slower than a Vagabond/Cynabal but faster than a Scimitar, has 50k EHP, and has a nice resistance profile. You really don't need Loki links for solo, at least with any ships I can think of.

[Loki, hello]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Caldari Navy Co-Processor
Caldari Navy Co-Processor
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Loki Defensive - Warfare Processor
Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Loki Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Loki Offensive - Hardpoint Efficiency Configuration
Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization

Warrior II x5
Warrior II x11
ashley Eoner
#140 - 2012-08-16 23:20:58 UTC
I rather enjoy giving random local miners orca buffs but that only works cause off grid buffs work :(


Oh well guess I was buffing the competition anyway..