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High Sec Hauler Ganking
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Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-08-14 17:16:39 UTC
Mammoth [Ganker Tanker]

[Hi Slots]
Civy Gun
Empty Slot

[Med Slots]
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II

[Low Slots]
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Damage Control II

[Rigs]
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Fly around with this fit and bait people into ganking you. Civy gun lets you wh*re on the mails if you lock in time. Literally hours of fun.

You can also use it to actually haul stuff saftely I suppose, but wheres the fun in that...?

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-08-14 17:48:59 UTC
I guess the magic word is Herotank.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#63 - 2012-08-14 19:05:04 UTC
Kal'Orellian wrote:
Of course it has not always been like that. We used to manage okay before the likes of Orcas, transport ships and blockade runners enterd game. Very few people had freighters either and it was still much safer to move goods back then compared to today.
Now I think you're just trolling. Ganking is now harder then ever, after many many nerfs. The last thing Eve needs, is safer AFK hauling.

You've been given options already, try using them.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Random McNally
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#64 - 2012-08-14 21:03:24 UTC
The masses have spoken, man. If your cargo is important enough to move and an Indy doesn't cut it. Buy an Orca or tank your T1 hauler better. Speed fit Orca should protect your cargo AND warp away quickly.

And never, never, never autopilot. Ever.

There are a bajillion stations to dock in if you have to go afk. Take advantage of CCP's generosity.

If you expect CCP to "fix" Haulers because you cannot tank, wont buy an Orca, have to autopilot--then EVE may not be the game for you.

Host of High Drag Podcast. http://highdrag.wordpress.com/

Space music http://minddivided.com

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Broadcast4Reps
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#65 - 2012-08-14 21:41:50 UTC

Mining barges got an upgrade because the nature of their operations make them extremely easy to gank with "weak" options on tanking.... CCP went a little overboard in my opinion... but nothing tooo crazy...


Haulers have ALWAYS had an easy way to minimize suicide ganking risk.....

1.) Simply carry less loot than the value of ships it takes to gank you.... CCP cannot fix this principle as long as people are free to aggress you in highsec... They can only raise the minimimum number of ships to gank you. Even FREIGHTERS, with 200k EHP, get regularly ganked when trying to transport over a billion in goods. Putting 100m in an iteron is just asking to die!!!

2.) Hide your cargo... You can double wrap packages to hide the goods you have. You can also put items into the corp hangars of an orca.
--- To double wrap: Place your blingy stuff into a cargo container... Then courier contract the cargo container to your alt or trusted associate. When they accept, they will get a nice "plastic wrapped" package of your stuff. Last I checked (this might have changed recently), ship scanners can only see through one layer of package, meaning when they scan you they will only see a cargo container, but not the contents of the cargo container.

3.) Hide your ship... Covert Transport Ships move stuff just fine, with very little risk of getting ganked....

3.) Don't ask CCP to "fix" suicide ganking for you, but instead ask for tools to allow YOU to fix the situation by making "smart choices" and/or using creative thinking. Support ideas like this: Decoy Cargo Containers. While that thread is old... items like this would allow players to purposely grief suicide gankers, thereby minimizing the risk to real haulers.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#66 - 2012-08-14 21:49:49 UTC
I'm sure they will get a buff when tiericide hits them.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-08-14 23:36:34 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
I'm sure they will get a buff when tiericide hits them.



In five to ten years

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Sigras
Conglomo
#68 - 2012-08-15 00:09:33 UTC
so wait . . . your complaint is that CCP wants you to be at the computer in order to play the game?

In fact thats not even your complaint, because you could do that by just buying a freighter.

you want CCP to make a ship thats cheap and specifically designed to haul things AFK?

This doesnt seem like a game design problem to me; you have the tools needed to haul stuff safely through emipre (orca, freighter, blockade runner, marauder, etc) but you dont want to use them because they force you to actually play the game.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#69 - 2012-08-15 09:38:06 UTC
You're talking about this as though it's something new. I haven't autopiloted a hauler with more than 35mill worth of cargo in it for more than 2 years purely because I'm likely to get blown up the higher the value of the cargo goes. Lower than 35mill and no one bothers generally (I have lost one to someone who was apparently just bored) but any more and they might well.

The lesson to learn from this is don't autopilot haulers when you have cargo of any value. Use autopilot for moving around empty ships.

As several people have suggested, you could get any of the tech II haulers for more secure active hauling but I don't think you're going to get far with the "I want to play EvE AFK" whine if everything I've read from CCP recently is to be taken seriously.
Gunnlaugur
EVE University
Ivy League
#70 - 2012-08-15 12:12:03 UTC
Why not just get a orca like evryone els?
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#71 - 2012-08-15 12:19:47 UTC
Gunnlaugur wrote:
Why not just get a orca like evryone els?


One shouldn't have to buy an orca to haul things but one should also not be AFK if you have anything of value in one's hold.

However, you have a point. If you want to AFK haul things think around the problem. For example I use an Orca to move around large volume medium value stuff and I use a passive tanked Rattlesnake to move around low volume high value stuff AFK when I'm not moving things actively.

Changing the game to specifically allow AFK play isn't a good thing for the game.
Kal'Orellian
Kyokushin Corporation
Muh Zkill...
#72 - 2012-08-15 12:32:40 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Gunnlaugur wrote:
Why not just get a orca like evryone els?


One shouldn't have to buy an orca to haul things but one should also not be AFK if you have anything of value in one's hold.

However, you have a point. If you want to AFK haul things think around the problem. For example I use an Orca to move around large volume medium value stuff and I use a passive tanked Rattlesnake to move around low volume high value stuff AFK when I'm not moving things actively.

Changing the game to specifically allow AFK play isn't a good thing for the game.


These are good points, though i might add, what about if you do not have the means or skills to fly an Orca or a Freighter (new pilots).

With regards to the changing the game to allow AFK, well the reverse I believe is true. AFK in high sec in the past (with reasonable cargo values) was always safe. Over time that has changed and it is now not safe, this in my opinion is because the cost to the ganker is too low, hence more gankers.

High sec ganking as a game mechanic should not be removed, the cost of it though I believe should be increased. requiring 2 or 3 ships to insta pop a hauler woudl be a better risk\reward ratio than the 1 ship that is currently required.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-08-15 12:36:51 UTC
Kal'Orellian wrote:
AFK in high sec in the past (with reasonable cargo values) was always safe.

Reasonable being "less than would make it worth ganking", yes. However, what you're really talking about isn't "reasonable cargo values", because if you were, you wouldn't be getting ganked.

Kal'Orellian wrote:
Over time that has changed and it is now not safe

Nope.

Kal'Orellian wrote:
this in my opinion is because the cost to the ganker is too low, hence more gankers.

This is an incorrect strawman.

Kal'Orellian wrote:
High sec ganking as a game mechanic should not be removed, the cost of it though I believe should be increased. requiring 2 or 3 ships to insta pop a hauler woudl be a better risk\reward ratio than the 1 ship that is currently required.

Have you ever tried tanking your ships?

No?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-08-15 12:46:27 UTC
Kal'Orellian wrote:

High sec ganking as a game mechanic should not be removed, the cost of it though I believe should be increased. requiring 2 or 3 ships to insta pop a hauler woudl be a better risk\reward ratio than the 1 ship that is currently required.


Gonna repost this

Yeep wrote:
Lets say I fully expand an Iteron V and fill it with Estamel's Invulns. Thats 8369 modules at 18bil a piece, or 150,642,000,000,000ISK of value. Lets assume a gank fit Tornado is the best value for money at 150mil a ship it does roughly 10.5k alpha and in low highsec gets 2 shots off before Concord shows up. To lose isk it would take 1,004,280 Tornados. So an untanked, fully expanded Iteron V should have 21,089,880 EHP. Thats just over half the health of a fully officer tanked titan.
Kal'Orellian
Kyokushin Corporation
Muh Zkill...
#75 - 2012-08-15 12:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kal'Orellian
Regarding costs to gankers it was an opinion not a strawman, in fact it wasn't even a statement.

It is not about the tanking options of your ships, its about the necessity of doing so in high sec in todays game environment. AS many poeple have pointed out again and again and again there are safe means to haul, but in high sec shoud you have to take them for reasonable cargo values.

When it comes to considering "reasonable cargo value" anything greater than the cost of the gankers ship value puts you at risk of being targetted. Its down to whether or not the ganker wants to take the risk the goods will drop. I am saying that if the cost to a ganker is 75mil (as an example of a Tornado), then anything under 75mil can be considerred reasonably safe. I think a 75 mil safe haul value is too low. A 150-300 mil cargo should be safe. Hence in my opinion a gankler shoud have to suicide that amount before getting a chance of getting your cargo. Again this is an opinion.

if you cannot see that hauler ganking is more prolific these days then you are missing something, personally I would love CCP to release some stats on this.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#76 - 2012-08-15 12:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
Kal'Orellian wrote:

These are good points, though i might add, what about if you do not have the means or skills to fly an Orca or a Freighter (new pilots).


Using an Orca or a passively tanked BS is not using as intended. It's co opting one thing for a different purpose. Whether a new player has the skill to fly a specific ship or not isn't really anything to do with this argument. A new player might not be able to fly a hauler. Also, a new player shouldn't be being incouraged to fly around AFK with expensive cargo.

Kal'Orellian wrote:

With regards to the changing the game to allow AFK, well the reverse I believe is true. AFK in high sec in the past (with reasonable cargo values) was always safe. Over time that has changed and it is now not safe, this in my opinion is because the cost to the ganker is too low, hence more gankers.


Granted, I've only been playing for 4 years but that's not been the case since I started so it hasn't been the case for the last 4 years. Perhaps it was before that but really the time it hasn't been the case precludes the "it used to be the case" from being relevant.

Kal'Orellian wrote:

High sec ganking as a game mechanic should not be removed, the cost of it though I believe should be increased. requiring 2 or 3 ships to insta pop a hauler woudl be a better risk\reward ratio than the 1 ship that is currently required.


I might agree if it wan't for the fact that it's easy to get a hauler to warp faster than a ship that can insta-pop it can lock it.

All you're saying is that one 75mill ship (which will be lost with no insurance after that first shot) can destroy an untanked, unattended, auto-piloting hauler.

WHat's wrong with that? Either fly it manually or tank it. Either method works. Just because you don't want to tank it or actively fly it doesn't mean the entire game should be altered to fit your play style. Expecially since CCP have announced they're intending to do away with all AFK play styles to the point that if they think someone is playing AFK they'll ban them. (From a CCP announcement entitled "Regarding AFK Complex Farming").

If you want to haul AFK you can. You chose whether to take that risk or not. If it were the case that you were being repeatedly killed whilst actively flying your hauler around you'd have a decent point but in this instance you're asking CCP to change the game to allow you to not play the game. It simply isn't going to fly but please, don't let me stop you continuing to ask for it. That is, after all, your right.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#77 - 2012-08-15 13:00:09 UTC
Kal'Orellian wrote:

if you cannot see that hauler ganking is more prolific these days then you are missing something, personally I would love CCP to release some stats on this.


I expect it has got more prolific. Suggesting that it's purely because the ships have got more powerful is a little naive.

The population has increased meaning there are more people doing all activities, the guns have been buffed, more valuable goods are being transported around high sec because there is generally more wealth meaning more targets, people have realised that there is a pretty good way of making isk off fools who don't know how to keep their stuff secure in high sec just to name a few of the potential reasons.

If no one autopiloted expensive cargo around the number of suicide gankers would drop off. You and people like you perpetuate the proffession.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-08-15 13:02:04 UTC
Kal'Orellian wrote:
It is not about the tanking options of your ships, its about the necessity of doing so in high sec in todays game environment. AS many poeple have pointed out again and again and again there are safe means to haul, but in high sec shoud you have to take them for reasonable cargo values.

When it comes to considering "reasonable cargo value" anything greater than the cost of the gankers ship value puts you at risk of being targetted. Its down to whether or not the ganker wants to take the risk the goods will drop. I am saying that if the cost to a ganker is 75mil (as an example of a Tornado), then anything under 75mil can be considerred reasonably safe. I think a 75 mil safe haul value is too low. A 150-300 mil cargo should be safe. Hence in my opinion a gankler shoud have to suicide that amount before getting a chance of getting your cargo. Again this is an opinion.

And I'm going to just assume that you haven't even tried tanking your ships, to see how expensive it'll make them to gank.

But hey, please do buff iteron 5's a fucktonne, I want to run around with a seriously tanky battle iteron. I mean, an iteron being able to take down a single megathron isn't enough, I want more!

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Kal'Orellian
Kyokushin Corporation
Muh Zkill...
#79 - 2012-08-15 13:09:44 UTC
Let me give you an example.

The other day I picked up 3 x Citadel Torp launchers, value approx 70 mil each (Jita sell order), with a volume of roughly 4k each. that is 210mil 12k volume cargo. Too risky to move in a non tanked Itteron V and certainly too risky to move afk in todays environment.

So I get out the Viator (with expanders and cargo rigs), max volume it can hold was 10k I think (can't remember for sure). So I need to make 2 trips of a 30 jump round trip to get them to Jita safely. My other option of course would be to use a heavily tanked Occator, but then I would have still had to make 2 trips. Or of ocurse I could have gotten an Orca for the job, which could not have safely gone to low sec to collect the items and is in anycase a bit overkill for a 12k cargo.

My point here is that hauling safely is ridiculously hard hard for such as small cargo value as 210mil with medium sized volumes.



Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-08-15 13:15:12 UTC
So you take the viator in the orca, run to the last hisec system, run into lowsec with the viator, fetch the launchers, run back to the orca with it, stick it in the corp hangars, and run back to jita.

It also means you need to make fewer trips, which is why anyone not member of the special short bus club would train up to get one.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat