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Ore Imbalance
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ORLICZ
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2012-10-05 11:06:09 UTC
thing is :


1.
we need veld cos we build moar and moar titans etc.

2.
CCP added bigerr asteroids of hi end rocks on gravimetrics - thats why prices dropiing - as they are low m3- so i supose megacyte drop to 1200 isk in near future :P
Herr Hammer Draken
#282 - 2012-10-05 11:25:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Pipa Porto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Oh aug 2011. I can hardly wait for it.....Maybe by 2015, 2020?

At any rate it changes nothing about this thread.
Or the current here and now.


You claimed that Nullsec Industry wasn't broken because CCP hadn't said it was.
I showed that CCP had in fact said it was.

You post.... whatever this is.


By the way, the biggest problem with Nullsec Ore production is that the Ore is produced in fixed ratios due to the need to cycle sites to keep the industry level up. There's no "mine less Spud 'cause it's worthless," or "Mine Less Bistot*"

*Bistot is 32.2% of the Large Asteroid Cluster by volume. The Large Asteroid Cluster is generally what you cycle.


So what? Changes nothing about current supply and demand issues. This thread is not about changing null sec industry.
CCP has had 2 updates to the game since they suggested changes to null sec industry. That is last years news!
This is today and the winter update changes nothing again about null sec industry. Supply and demand will still control the price of ore as I stated in post 271 and 272. Broken null sec industry or not does not change that at all. The game today is what it is not something on a drawing board. That is my point.

How does broken null sec industry invaladate current supply and demand issues of ore?

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Pipa Porto
#283 - 2012-10-05 11:52:33 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
So what? Changes nothing about current supply and demand issues. This thread is not about changing null sec industry.
CCP has had 2 updates to the game since they suggested changes to null sec industry. That is last years news!
This is today and the winter update changes nothing again about null sec industry. Supply and demand will still control the price of ore as I stated in post 271 and 272. Broken null sec industry or not does not change that at all. The game today is what it is not something on a drawing board. That is my point.


Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Until CCP brings forth a proposal to fix something I do not consider it to be broken but a game design feature


You claimed that things CCP hasn't looked into fixing yet aren't broken (and that things CCP has looked into fixing are), then claimed that CCP had not yet looked into fixing nullsec industry. When I proved otherwise, you... I'm not sure how to characterize your post. "Nyah, Nyah, it doesn't count," maybe?

Quote:
How does broken null sec industry invaladate current supply and demand issues of ore?


Where did I say it did?


In 272, you claimed that Nullsec miners have "Pricing Power." Where's your evidence to support that? The fact that it takes effort to bring your product to market does not magically give you "Pricing Power"

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Herr Hammer Draken
#284 - 2012-10-05 12:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Pipa Porto wrote:


Quote:
How does broken null sec industry invaladate current supply and demand issues of ore?


Where did I say it did?




You implied it with your post #276.

That was what my post #275 was about which you miss quoted. How does a broken null sec industry invaladate supply and demand issues of ore in eve?

Your posts begining at 276 are about misdirection.

They are invalid to this thread. They add nothing of value to the ongoing discussion.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#285 - 2012-10-05 13:12:13 UTC
Just another data point about this issue: I've seen more and more hisec belts getting completely mined out. I see multiple Orca-boosted crews working belts in even .9 and 1.0 belts. I suspect that this is due to the fabulous prices on Scord, Pyrox, and Plag now.

Seriously, the only better ore than Scord in the game right now is Arkonor, on an ISK/hr basis. And you can collect a hell of a lot more Scord a hell of a lot more efficiently than you can Arkonor. I would think that all this mining activity would drive prices of the high-end minerals back up, but not so much...which leads me to think that the drone-poop nerf was an even more massive hit than we suspected, and that the war against mining bots was more effective than even CCP anticipated. With all that mining activity in high, it seems like we still can't fill the massive appetite of lowsec and null for trit and pyerite.

Part of this is undoubtedly due to the wars currently being fought in nullsec. Ships are being chewed up at a high rate, so replacement is driving low-end mineral prices skyward.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2012-10-05 19:21:23 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
~moronic pubbie post~


Industry that is non-highsec is broken your points are invalid.


~more mornic pubbie babble~



Explain to me how mining is not a part of industry.

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celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#287 - 2012-10-06 17:44:36 UTC
This ore imbalance is a joke, even Perpetuum has ores better balanced than this, and it's player driven too. Those small tweaks need to come from the Devs. Just look at Scordite description, they are meant for beginner miners.

'Scordite is amongst the most common ore types in the known universe. It has a large portion of tritanium plus a fair bit of pyerite. Good choice for those starting their mining careers.'
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#288 - 2012-10-07 19:40:32 UTC
celebro wrote:
This ore imbalance is a joke, even Perpetuum has ores better balanced than this, and it's player driven too. Those small tweaks need to come from the Devs. Just look at Scordite description, they are meant for beginner miners.

'Scordite is amongst the most common ore types in the known universe. It has a large portion of tritanium plus a fair bit of pyerite. Good choice for those starting their mining careers.'


It's easy to say stuff like that. Changing the way the economy works is harder. The only real way CCP could make ore like scordite a real beginner ore is to cahnge what the economy burn in term of material. Find what destroy the most minerals in the game and add more lowénull sec minerals to the bill of material list of said things.

Lets take ammo for example. Ammo gets burned every day in EvE which means some materials goes up in smokes. as an example, lets take an imaginary ammo of type X. (I don`t know industry number so I can't use a real value)

Ammo X bill of material per batch

10000 trit
5000 pyerite
2000 mexallon
1000 isogen
500 megacyte
100 Morphyte

The real way to incraese the price of high end stuff would be to chage the bill of amterial to.

10000 trit
5000 pyerite
2000 mexallon
1000 Isogen
1000 Megacyte
300 Morphyte

This technically triple the need for morphyte and double the need for megacyte in this particullar field. Of course ammo is only one market where the minerals go so changing only this would not change the pricing that much but it would be a start. You can play with the fabricaton cost of pretty much anything as long as something just as good is not seeded by NPC for a fixed amount of isk or the price rise generated by the new bill of material risk killing the need of prodution because people would only use the npc seeded item if it ever become cheaper.
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#289 - 2012-10-07 19:51:25 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
celebro wrote:
This ore imbalance is a joke, even Perpetuum has ores better balanced than this, and it's player driven too. Those small tweaks need to come from the Devs. Just look at Scordite description, they are meant for beginner miners.

'Scordite is amongst the most common ore types in the known universe. It has a large portion of tritanium plus a fair bit of pyerite. Good choice for those starting their mining careers.'


It's easy to say stuff like that. Changing the way the economy works is harder. The only real way CCP could make ore like scordite a real beginner ore is to cahnge what the economy burn in term of material. Find what destroy the most minerals in the game and add more lowénull sec minerals to the bill of material list of said things.

Lets take ammo for example. Ammo gets burned every day in EvE which means some materials goes up in smokes. as an example, lets take an imaginary ammo of type X. (I don`t know industry number so I can't use a real value)

Ammo X bill of material per batch

10000 trit
5000 pyerite
2000 mexallon
1000 isogen
500 megacyte
100 Morphyte

The real way to incraese the price of high end stuff would be to chage the bill of amterial to.

10000 trit
5000 pyerite
2000 mexallon
1000 Isogen
1000 Megacyte
300 Morphyte

This technically triple the need for morphyte and double the need for megacyte in this particullar field. Of course ammo is only one market where the minerals go so changing only this would not change the pricing that much but it would be a start. You can play with the fabricaton cost of pretty much anything as long as something just as good is not seeded by NPC for a fixed amount of isk or the price rise generated by the new bill of material risk killing the need of prodution because people would only use the npc seeded item if it ever become cheaper.

I gave some numbers a few pages earliers. If you mine all your megacyte through arkonor, and all your tritanium through veldspar (the most efficient for each):
-To get a rokh, you need to spend 11 more time mining veldspar than arkonor.
-To get a riter, you need to spend 71 more time mining veldspar than arkonor.
Ammos are even worst. 100 scourge heavy missile is something like 700 tritanium and 2 nocxium.
Pipa Porto
#290 - 2012-10-08 02:07:53 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Quote:
How does broken null sec industry invaladate current supply and demand issues of ore?


Where did I say it did?




You implied it with your post #276.


I did no such thing.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mos7Wan7ed
Hardcore Industries
#291 - 2012-10-09 12:28:53 UTC
Dasola wrote:
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..



We don't want to flood the market with high end minerals.. We would much rather build with them cause our markets are puny and over-inflated. But CCP doesn't give us any options out in null sec. Unlike empire, we can't roam 5-10 public systems and clear Veldspar from asteroid belts, and the grav plexes have laughable amounts of low end ores in them. Until CCP gives us a viable way to get access to low end ores we are forced to cart it to the only market in the game that can support it's sale. Jita.

We would much rather have the small gravimetric site converted in to one that resembles a 5-8 million m3 empire asteroid belt then what we get for a small grav plex now. Lest then we could make use of those high ends and stop flooding the market in empire.

You might not realize this but null sec effects are worse tho.. Null sec has been effecting low end mineral prices out of Jita as well by buying up low ends and using mineral compression to seed our 0.0 markets with low end ores.

It is a sad state of affairs when CCP has had two real world economist and none have spotted this problem.
celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#292 - 2012-10-09 14:05:32 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
celebro wrote:
This ore imbalance is a joke, even Perpetuum has ores better balanced than this, and it's player driven too. Those small tweaks need to come from the Devs. Just look at Scordite description, they are meant for beginner miners.

'Scordite is amongst the most common ore types in the known universe. It has a large portion of tritanium plus a fair bit of pyerite. Good choice for those starting their mining careers.'


It's easy to say stuff like that. Changing the way the economy works is harder. The only real way CCP could make ore like scordite a real beginner ore is to cahnge what the economy burn in term of material. Find what destroy the most minerals in the game and add more lowénull sec minerals to the bill of material list of said things.

Lets take ammo for example. Ammo gets burned every day in EvE which means some materials goes up in smokes. as an example, lets take an imaginary ammo of type X. (I don`t know industry number so I can't use a real value)

Ammo X bill of material per batch

10000 trit
5000 pyerite
2000 mexallon
1000 isogen
500 megacyte
100 Morphyte

The real way to incraese the price of high end stuff would be to chage the bill of amterial to.

10000 trit
5000 pyerite
2000 mexallon
1000 Isogen
1000 Megacyte
300 Morphyte

This technically triple the need for morphyte and double the need for megacyte in this particullar field. Of course ammo is only one market where the minerals go so changing only this would not change the pricing that much but it would be a start. You can play with the fabricaton cost of pretty much anything as long as something just as good is not seeded by NPC for a fixed amount of isk or the price rise generated by the new bill of material risk killing the need of prodution because people would only use the npc seeded item if it ever become cheaper.


I would not tweak the demand, just make high ends more available , larger roids of veldspar and scordite so they pop less often, more grav sites, mining bonuses for high ends and lower volume for both veld and scordite.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2012-10-11 21:17:52 UTC
We just want industry balanced across the entirety of the game instead of favored in highsec and very unfavored in the rest of the game. That means nerfs and buffs to go around.

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Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#294 - 2012-10-14 11:15:30 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
We just want industry balanced across the entirety of the game instead of favored in highsec and very unfavored in the rest of the game. That means nerfs and buffs to go around.


Ah, goon tears. Most delicious.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2012-10-15 23:03:37 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
We just want industry balanced across the entirety of the game instead of favored in highsec and very unfavored in the rest of the game. That means nerfs and buffs to go around.


Ah, goon tears. Most delicious.


I suggest you read the op again no-name 10 man highsec corp member.

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