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Ore Imbalance
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Vanria Vexed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-09-11 16:31:07 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Tanner Mirabel wrote:
One of the differences between mining in 0.0 and Hi sec is that in 0.0 you can fly to a belt and there will be ore to mine. I haven't done much mining in a while and I thought I would do a bit last night. I checked around 10 systems around my home base last night and the best I could find was a few Veldspar pebbles. Many belts were literally empty, completely void of roid. I think this is why the prices are the way they are. demand is so high a lot of hi sec has been sucked dry and most people won't go to low sec to mine so prices just go up. I think if the amount of ore that respawned was increased slightly then there would be more for people to mine and supply would increase leading to prices easing off.


If that's happening a lot, then one of two things is true: you're trying to mine in .9 or 1.0 systems, or you're too close to a trade hub (within 5 or 6 jumps). No creature on earth is lazier than a miner in EVE. Move to less crowded space and lower security systems and you'll find ore belts aplenty. Yes, there are higher costs with the longer logistics chain -- you have to budget for transport -- but even so you'll make a lot more ISK if you're willing to move your operations further out of the Empire core.

Also: Caldari space is the worst space in New Eden to do mining in because there are too many people. Never mind the can flippers and gankers; all the belts within 10 jumps of Jita are completely mined out. Gallente space is just as bad nowadays. Try some of the quieter systems in Khanid, Amarr, Ammatar, or Minmatar space.


There are areas in Caldari space that are great to mine, you just have to find them. But getting out of Caldari space around Jita is a good start. My home about 10 jumps away from Jita and I let others do my hauling.

If you are depressed by the size of rocks in the systems you call home, it's time to move. Where I call home, I can (if I wanted to) rotate belts and only mine fully grown belts everyday. There are even belts like this one I found. Have fun exploring

**Playing EVE at times feels like putting a 10000 piece puzzle together, enjoying the accomplishment of succedding in completing it, then having some random stranger walk by and flip your table over. **
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2012-09-12 07:38:34 UTC
I am sure someone in your null outpost will want to buy **** that you leave in station one day.
Virr Kotto
Doomheim
#203 - 2012-09-13 11:24:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Virr Kotto
Souisa wrote:
The problem is they made the most common minerals also being required the most. .



This is not a problem, this is the way it's always been.

If you take the time to look at the effect that the massive ORE HOLDs are having on the ability of people to AFK mine (aka, "I'm a lazy sod who loves to go off and play while I make easy ISK" ) you will notice many of them are mining ice.

Ice, since it doesn't deplete, is perfect for AFK miners.

Mind you, the last time this sort of (quasi-similar) thing hit the economy, several things happened on the CCP end.

For one, alot of ice belts in High Sec were nerfed... if you were around then, you'll remember the fun that caused. Blink

Stay in the game long enough, and you'll see that history has a habit of repeating itself. Interpret that as you will. Shocked
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#204 - 2012-09-14 03:12:52 UTC
Tanner Mirabel wrote:
One of the differences between mining in 0.0 and Hi sec is that in 0.0 you can fly to a belt and there will be ore to mine. I haven't done much mining in a while and I thought I would do a bit last night. I checked around 10 systems around my home base last night and the best I could find was a few Veldspar pebbles. Many belts were literally empty, completely void of roid. I think this is why the prices are the way they are. demand is so high a lot of hi sec has been sucked dry and most people won't go to low sec to mine so prices just go up. I think if the amount of ore that respawned was increased slightly then there would be more for people to mine and supply would increase leading to prices easing off.


If you want tips on where to mine, EVEmail me. I can point you to nice systems in connected high-sec, with belts full of low-end ores, and very few other miners.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#205 - 2012-09-14 03:19:07 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
You only get to sell it for what the market is willing to pay for it.


You said it. And I totally agree with you. CCP wanted to make mining a viable career choice and atm it is just that.


Exploring for grav sites in high-sec is not, however, a viable career choice.

I can spend an hour looking for a grav site, and find one containing low-value ores like Kernite and Omber, or I can fly to an easily accessible belt and find lots of valuable ores like Scordite.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-09-14 23:35:35 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
You only get to sell it for what the market is willing to pay for it.


You said it. And I totally agree with you. CCP wanted to make mining a viable career choice and atm it is just that.


Exploring for grav sites in high-sec is not, however, a viable career choice.

I can spend an hour looking for a grav site, and find one containing low-value ores like Kernite and Omber, or I can fly to an easily accessible belt and find lots of valuable ores like Scordite.


Omber grav site are the equivalent of the game trolling you. All the time spent pinpointing it gets you ore worth less than belt rocks.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#207 - 2012-09-15 17:57:05 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salpad wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
You only get to sell it for what the market is willing to pay for it.


You said it. And I totally agree with you. CCP wanted to make mining a viable career choice and atm it is just that.


Exploring for grav sites in high-sec is not, however, a viable career choice.

I can spend an hour looking for a grav site, and find one containing low-value ores like Kernite and Omber, or I can fly to an easily accessible belt and find lots of valuable ores like Scordite.


Omber grav site are the equivalent of the game trolling you. All the time spent pinpointing it gets you ore worth less than belt rocks.


Hisec grav sites generally are a waste of time. Sometimes you find good ones -- once I found some Arkonor -- but mostly it's stuff you'd readily find elsewhere in hisec. I've found Hemorphite and Jaspet asteroids in a couple too, but not in big enough concentrations to make it worth spending a lot of time on. Frankly, I find it better to find good combat-site mining areas: I found a Radar site one time with a ton of Jaspet and Hemorphite asteroids, and another that had a huge amount of Scordite in it. (And since it respawned every night, I could farm it for a week. I made nearly 500M ISK off that mission site....)

It's getting to the point that I just ignore grav sites when I hit them now unless they have high-ends in them.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#208 - 2012-09-16 19:29:04 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have invincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.

Way off??? huh, everything worth something (officer mods), ABC ore, flying cash bags (BS NPC'S), yes living in the country side with a bunch of hillbillies that shoot anything that moves is the price for living in that cash register called me 0.0, it is the way it is because you all have itchy trigger fingers it hurts soooo bad to behave and stop shooting one another. blah, won't understand.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2012-09-16 21:05:03 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Dasola wrote:
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..



Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0?

Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite.

That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.



I'm years late to this conversation, but don't most alliances have a buy back program for ores/minerals? Seems to me you could just sell at a marginal "loss" for the convenience (say 4.90 isk/trit, or even 4.75) and not have to haul it anywhere but your local station.

Svodola Darkfury.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2012-09-18 19:23:12 UTC
@Piugattuk: Not going to bother with an intelligent response to that instead I'll just post this gem from your bio.

WANT PVP WITHOUT THE LOW SEC NULL SEC RISK...THEN GO JOIN RED VS BLUE AND LEAVE US CAREBEARS ALONE TO KEEP EVE GOING IN THE BACKROUND, OR JUST GO TO JITA AND DROP A CAN AND YOU'LL GET HAPPY HAPPY PVP, BUT JUST GO AWAY, CAUSE I DON'T WANT YOU AROUND, THEY DON'T WANT YOU AROUND...NOBODY WANT'S YOU AROUND.

STOP THAT CHICKEN, STOP THAT CHICKEN, STOP THAT CHICKEN NOW!!!

Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Dasola wrote:
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..



Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0?

Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite.

That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.



I'm years late to this conversation, but don't most alliances have a buy back program for ores/minerals? Seems to me you could just sell at a marginal "loss" for the convenience (say 4.90 isk/trit, or even 4.75) and not have to haul it anywhere but your local station.

Svodola Darkfury.


Your idea here of a buyback program would work if industry was well off outside of highsec. As it is now there is no reason to do any industry outside of highsec other than supercapital construction.

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Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#211 - 2012-09-18 21:24:02 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


Your idea here of a buyback program would work if industry was well off outside of highsec. As it is now there is no reason to do any industry outside of highsec other than supercapital construction.


Wait, are you actually telling me that the Drakes you fly in GSF aren't built in null-sec? Surely you guys aren't flying to Jita and buying them to freight them back? And since I feel reasonably comfortable that the answer to that is, "Of course not. We build them here," then the follow on question becomes, "Surely you're not buying your TRIT in Jita, right?"

It's an exaggeration in the extreme to say "... there is no reason to do any industry outside of highsec."

I feel reasonably comfortable that the NC. Zealots you're shooting down are coming from hi-sec. But your drakes have to be entirely native production, surely?

I would assume that missiles and other ammo are also produced locally as well. Modules, maybe not (although commonly used modules are probably produced locally as well). And do you export all your tech raw? or do you process it into Platinum Technite and then Fullerides and Nanotransistors? Because that's also industry.

I agree, the majority of things probably do get built in hi-sec. But if you're building NOTHING in null-sec then I have to imagine that you're doing it wrong.
Pipa Porto
#212 - 2012-09-19 00:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Seminole Sun wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Your idea here of a buyback program would work if industry was well off outside of highsec. As it is now there is no reason to do any industry outside of highsec other than supercapital construction.


Wait, are you actually telling me that the Drakes you fly in GSF aren't built in null-sec? Surely you guys aren't flying to Jita and buying them to freight them back? And since I feel reasonably comfortable that the answer to that is, "Of course not. We build them here," then the follow on question becomes, "Surely you're not buying your TRIT in Jita, right?"


They probably are buying their Trit in Jita. A Rhea full of 425mm Railguns (or 800mm Repeating Artillery) will produce a staggering amount of Subcapital hulls.


Seminole Sun wrote:
I agree, the majority of things probably do get built in hi-sec. But if you're building NOTHING in null-sec then I have to imagine that you're doing it wrong.


Nullsec production of finished goods rounds down to nothing compared to HS in just about every category other than Capitals and Supercaps.

I very much doubt any significant amount of modules are built in Nullsec (a Rhea full of T2 modules will supply a well used hub in nullsec for quite some time).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#213 - 2012-09-19 01:23:26 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:



I very much doubt any significant amount of modules are built in Nullsec (a Rhea full of T2 modules will supply a well used hub in nullsec for quite some time).


You can get a Rhea to Jita? Damn there is so much stuff to learn in this game still...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-09-19 01:26:38 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
@Piugattuk: Not going to bother with an intelligent response to that instead I'll just post this gem from your bio.


Your idea here of a buyback program would work if industry was well off outside of highsec. As it is now there is no reason to do any industry outside of highsec other than supercapital construction.


Assuming someone wanted to do the mining, would the price need to be super low to fight the relative efficiency of hauling jump freighter worth of items for trit and such?
Pipa Porto
#215 - 2012-09-19 04:05:41 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:



I very much doubt any significant amount of modules are built in Nullsec (a Rhea full of T2 modules will supply a well used hub in nullsec for quite some time).


You can get a Rhea to Jita? Damn there is so much stuff to learn in this game still...


Yep. JFs can enter HS via gates and are free to jump out of HS to a cyno in LS/Null. Sit on the Jita undock for a while on a weekend and you'll see JFs undock and Jump out from the Jita undock somewhat regularly.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
loyalanon
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#216 - 2012-09-19 05:30:38 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have invincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.


100% Totally agree with the above.
Pipa Porto
#217 - 2012-09-19 07:50:16 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have invincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.

Way off??? huh, everything worth something (officer mods), ABC ore, flying cash bags (BS NPC'S), yes living in the country side with a bunch of hillbillies that shoot anything that moves is the price for living in that cash register called me 0.0, it is the way it is because you all have itchy trigger fingers it hurts soooo bad to behave and stop shooting one another. blah, won't understand.


Ahem: Incursions.*
Ahem: L4 Missions.*
Ahem: The vast bulk of all industry.

What's this about HS being spacepoor?

*Both produce similar or greater (I'm looking at you, Incursions) incomes compared to Nullsec ratting with an equivalent value ship.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-09-19 13:31:16 UTC
loyalanon wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have invincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.


100% Totally agree with the above.


Then how do you explain the abysmally low prices of the high-end minerals like Megacyte and Morphite? It's more profitable to mine Veld and Scordite in high because nullbears are overmining high-ends in null. Logistics in null used to be a lot worse than now, but JF's and jump bridge networks took a lot of the ouch out of it. It's still not as easy as highsec, true, but it's a lot easier than in lowsec. I've mined extensively in both nullsec and in highsec, and I can say that mining in null is just as "safe" as in high if you're behind a blue firewall. I've gone weeks in null without ever seeing a single red.

I moved back to highsec because the money is better, not because it is safer. (Though the two things are related.)
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#219 - 2012-09-19 15:11:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salpad wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
You only get to sell it for what the market is willing to pay for it.


You said it. And I totally agree with you. CCP wanted to make mining a viable career choice and atm it is just that.


Exploring for grav sites in high-sec is not, however, a viable career choice.

I can spend an hour looking for a grav site, and find one containing low-value ores like Kernite and Omber, or I can fly to an easily accessible belt and find lots of valuable ores like Scordite.


Omber grav site are the equivalent of the game trolling you. All the time spent pinpointing it gets you ore worth less than belt rocks.


Yes, that's EXACTLY my point.

The ore values, relative to each other, are not as CCP intended them to be. CCP intended scanning for grav sites, even in high-sec, to be an attractive and valuable thing to do. CCP intended for the kinds of ores found in high-sec grav sites to be worth much more, per cubic meter, than the kinds of ores that can be found in high-sec asteroid belts.

The game isn't working as intended.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#220 - 2012-09-19 15:32:25 UTC
Salpad wrote:
The ore values, relative to each other, are not as CCP intended them to be. CCP intended scanning for grav sites, even in high-sec, to be an attractive and valuable thing to do. CCP intended for the kinds of ores found in high-sec grav sites to be worth much more, per cubic meter, than the kinds of ores that can be found in high-sec asteroid belts.

The game isn't working as intended.


The idea behind EVE is 'emergent gameplay', and that's exactly what's happening. CCP sets the original conditions of the universe and applies some basic ratios and rules, but after that it's just the game mechanics playing themselves out. CCP has stated on multiple occasions that while this or that outcome came as a surprise to them, it's not considered a defect or a bug in the game. It's just how the players and the game have evolved over the years.

Omber isn't intrinsically a worthless ore. Isogen can fetch a good price. If at some point in the future CCP releases some ship or structure that requires a lot of isogen to build, I expect Omber to become a more attractive ore to mine in hisec. (Maybe the new mining frigate? Who knows.) In fact, if you mine for manufacturing rather than for sale, it's still worthwhile to grab some Omber while you're building your stockpiles (if there's no Kernite around).

What CCP "intended" by their various game mechanics was to promote emergent gameplay, and that's exactly what we're seeing. Yes, grav sites suck right now, but that may not always be the case. Look at Scordite -- I can remember when miners disdained Scordite and wouldn't touch the rocks, but now that Pyerite is so high Scord is the new darling of the mining profession. It's just the ebb and flow of the game.

Working as intended.