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Ore Imbalance
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Souisa
Subhypersonics
#181 - 2012-09-10 07:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
The problem is they made the most common minerals also being required the most. So even tho a mineral is rare and hard to get, it doesent matter, because its not used as much as the common ones. In this sense it is equally profitable to mine either, because the demand is just as high for the common minerals as the rare ones. Just take a look at any blueprint, it will basically require tonnes of trit and pyer, but not so much zyd and megacyte. If megacyte and zyd should become more valuable, demand has to increase, and then blueprints will have to have their recipes changed a bit. This is not practical, because changing recipes will most likely create an uproar in the community. But i suggest when CCP is making new blueprints for new ships and modules, try and make some of them require more or equal amounts of megacyte and trit for example.

o/
Elinarien
Doomheim
#182 - 2012-09-10 08:01:30 UTC
Souisa wrote:
The problem is they made the most common minerals also being required the most. So even tho a mineral is rare and hard to get, it doesent matter, because its not used as much as the common ones. In this sense it is equally profitable to mine either, because the demand is just as high for the common minerals as the rare ones. Just take a look at any blueprint, it will basically require tonnes of trit and pyer, but not so much zyd and megacyte. If megacyte and zyd should become more valuable, demand has to increase, and then blueprints will have to have their recipes changed a bit. This is not practical, because changing recipes will most likely create an uproar in the community. But i suggest when CCP is making new blueprints for new ships and modules, try and make some of them require more or equal amounts of megacyte and trit for example.


Or perhaps people should get out there and mine the high-sec ores to take advantage of the high prices and satisfy the demand....
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#183 - 2012-09-10 10:42:27 UTC
Souisa wrote:
The problem is they made the most common minerals also being required the most. So even tho a mineral is rare and hard to get, it doesent matter, because its not used as much as the common ones. In this sense it is equally profitable to mine either, because the demand is just as high for the common minerals as the rare ones. Just take a look at any blueprint, it will basically require tonnes of trit and pyer, but not so much zyd and megacyte. If megacyte and zyd should become more valuable, demand has to increase, and then blueprints will have to have their recipes changed a bit. This is not practical, because changing recipes will most likely create an uproar in the community. But i suggest when CCP is making new blueprints for new ships and modules, try and make some of them require more or equal amounts of megacyte and trit for example.


It would be somewhat ridiculous to increase the amount of Megacyte required, which cost thousands of ISK p/u, to similar levels of Tritanium required, which costs about six ISK p/u. I think you have to realise that prices for ores/minerals in high sec had to increase from what they were say a year or eighteen months ago to make mining more viable/profitable as a career choice. Removing the drone compound drops and a more concerted effort against mining bots/RMTers has attained this target and a feel this is a good situation to be at.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#184 - 2012-09-10 11:08:51 UTC
serras bang wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
i

In terms of weight to return Plagioclase gives you more Mexallon than Kernite. The main use for Kernite is to complete level four storyline missions. Other than for that use it's way to heavy & slow to mine and haul so I would generally advise not mining Kernite.

Omber does have Isogen in it and I do mine that for Isogen though. Smile



so whats your thought on that idea as far as both the market gose and trying to get people into low sec seing you obviosly do mine it and notice the impact it may have


I don't see a point or reason to remove Omber & Kernite deposits from high sec space. However hard you try you won't force miners to mine in low or nul sec if they don't want to. You have to be really organised in fleets for low & nulsec mining to work and even then you can come a cropper. Also removing Omber & Kernite would raise prices further when the consensus from the non-mining community is calling for cheaper minerals. So on those two points alone your proposal is dead in the water.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#185 - 2012-09-10 13:19:55 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
serras bang wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
i

In terms of weight to return Plagioclase gives you more Mexallon than Kernite. The main use for Kernite is to complete level four storyline missions. Other than for that use it's way to heavy & slow to mine and haul so I would generally advise not mining Kernite.

Omber does have Isogen in it and I do mine that for Isogen though. Smile



so whats your thought on that idea as far as both the market gose and trying to get people into low sec seing you obviosly do mine it and notice the impact it may have


I don't see a point or reason to remove Omber & Kernite deposits from high sec space. However hard you try you won't force miners to mine in low or nul sec if they don't want to. You have to be really organised in fleets for low & nulsec mining to work and even then you can come a cropper. Also removing Omber & Kernite would raise prices further when the consensus from the non-mining community is calling for cheaper minerals. So on those two points alone your proposal is dead in the water.




Thing is, the "hisec only" miners just need the right push to get into low...

The trouble is that you have to make friends before you can set up industry. That's "difficult".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#186 - 2012-09-10 14:22:38 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
serras bang wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
i

In terms of weight to return Plagioclase gives you more Mexallon than Kernite. The main use for Kernite is to complete level four storyline missions. Other than for that use it's way to heavy & slow to mine and haul so I would generally advise not mining Kernite.

Omber does have Isogen in it and I do mine that for Isogen though. Smile



so whats your thought on that idea as far as both the market gose and trying to get people into low sec seing you obviosly do mine it and notice the impact it may have


I don't see a point or reason to remove Omber & Kernite deposits from high sec space. However hard you try you won't force miners to mine in low or nul sec if they don't want to. You have to be really organised in fleets for low & nulsec mining to work and even then you can come a cropper. Also removing Omber & Kernite would raise prices further when the consensus from the non-mining community is calling for cheaper minerals. So on those two points alone your proposal is dead in the water.




Thing is, the "hisec only" miners just need the right push to get into low...

The trouble is that you have to make friends before you can set up industry. That's "difficult".


That push would be money. But take a few minutes to think how much money since miners would ahve to deal with the added security and possible hauling cost to get thier minerals to market. How much do you have to pay a potential pirate to become your guard dog? And how many of thopse do you need to efficiently be protected in low sec? Concord in high sec provide unlimited firepower over less than a minute. How many guard dogs do you need to get that kind of security for your mining ops in low?
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-09-10 14:42:01 UTC
Elinarien wrote:
Or perhaps people should get out there and mine the high-sec ores to take advantage of the high prices and satisfy the demand....

As said much earlier in this thread, mining low-end ore in nullsec is not a rational solution, as the mining location, refining location, trading locationand production locationare often separate (and, concerning the mining location, required to change as industry index go up and roamers swarms around), often inferior to the highsec equivalents and the logistic between them much more bothersome than "autopilot a freigther from A to B", to the point it simply dont makes sense to do something else than "buy minerals in jita, compress them in 425mm railguns, import the railguns, reprocess the railguns and haul the minerals for one trip only"

TL; DR: Mining low-end ore (veldspar and scordite, for instance) is much less viable in nullsec than in high. That leaves the miners in nullsec (lol) with high-end ores, which they end up overproducing stupidely fast (as I said earlier, the veldspar part of a rokh requires 11 time less mining than the megacyte part. And that's for a t3 battleship, probably the class of ship that requires the most high-end ores).
To put it in another way, if you have more than 1 miner mining arkonor for 11 mining veldspar, megacyte is in overproduction.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-09-10 14:55:55 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Elinarien wrote:
Or perhaps people should get out there and mine the high-sec ores to take advantage of the high prices and satisfy the demand....

As said much earlier in this thread, mining low-end ore in nullsec is not a rational solution, as the mining location, refining location, trading locationand production locationare often separate (and, concerning the mining location, required to change as industry index go up and roamers swarms around), often inferior to the highsec equivalents and the logistic between them much more bothersome than "autopilot a freigther from A to B", to the point it simply dont makes sense to do something else than "buy minerals in jita, compress them in 425mm railguns, import the railguns, reprocess the railguns and haul the minerals for one trip only"

TL; DR: Mining low-end ore (veldspar and scordite, for instance) is much less viable in nullsec than in high. That leaves the miners in nullsec (lol) with high-end ores, which they end up overproducing stupidely fast (as I said earlier, the veldspar part of a rokh requires 11 time less mining than the megacyte part. And that's for a t3 battleship, probably the class of ship that requires the most high-end ores).
To put it in another way, if you have more than 1 miner mining arkonor for 11 mining veldspar, megacyte is in overproduction.


But what is preventing you from going into high sec for a while to cash out on the current price? Nobody is forcing anyone to mine in null/low. As long as there will be more than 1 miner in null for every 11 in high, you will make more money in high. So if you want money, go to high. If you want to stay in null, find another way to reduce the amount of miners in null or increase the amount of null minerals required. (I don't even think the option 2 is even possible without also increasing the requirement of high sec minerals.) So kill null miners till they say "**** mining" or go mine in high for more $$$.
Edhelbrien
Borrage Lane Associates
#189 - 2012-09-10 15:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Edhelbrien
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
Elinarien wrote:
Or perhaps people should get out there and mine the high-sec ores to take advantage of the high prices and satisfy the demand....

As said much earlier in this thread, mining low-end ore in nullsec is not a rational solution, as the mining location, refining location, trading locationand production locationare often separate (and, concerning the mining location, required to change as industry index go up and roamers swarms around), often inferior to the highsec equivalents and the logistic between them much more bothersome than "autopilot a freigther from A to B", to the point it simply dont makes sense to do something else than "buy minerals in jita, compress them in 425mm railguns, import the railguns, reprocess the railguns and haul the minerals for one trip only"

TL; DR: Mining low-end ore (veldspar and scordite, for instance) is much less viable in nullsec than in high. That leaves the miners in nullsec (lol) with high-end ores, which they end up overproducing stupidely fast (as I said earlier, the veldspar part of a rokh requires 11 time less mining than the megacyte part. And that's for a t3 battleship, probably the class of ship that requires the most high-end ores).
To put it in another way, if you have more than 1 miner mining arkonor for 11 mining veldspar, megacyte is in overproduction.


But what is preventing you from going into high sec for a while to cash out on the current price? Nobody is forcing anyone to mine in null/low. As long as there will be more than 1 miner in null for every 11 in high, you will make more money in high. So if you want money, go to high. If you want to stay in null, find another way to reduce the amount of miners in null or increase the amount of null minerals required. (I don't even think the option 2 is even possible without also increasing the requirement of high sec minerals.) So kill null miners till they say "**** mining" or go mine in high for more $$$.


Given the current prices I've never quite understood why the big null alliances haven't muscled their way into high sec. All it would take is a constant presence of theirs across some of the more productive high sec mining areas coupled with threats and ganks in order to clear away any competition and they could have unrivalled access to the belts.

Rather than flogging a dead horse they should go where the money is.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#190 - 2012-09-10 15:37:49 UTC
Another way to encourage mining in low and null is to get rid of mineral compression via making modules and such. (It always struck me as odd this would work anyway. Its like you took your car to the junkyard, they crushed it, shredded it and dumped it into the furnace, and what comes out is a cube of steel 10 meters on a side.)

Mineral compression can be eliminated by:

Making modules bigger (may require bigger cargo holds for balance)
Changing the mineral composition (More zyd and mega, less trit and pyerite. Would also help balance the present supply/demand issue).
Changing the BPOs so many of the minerals are "additional materials needed", as these do not return upon reprocessing.
Make reprocessing manufactured items inherently inefficient so even with maxed out skills you only get 50% back.

Or some combination of several of the above.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#191 - 2012-09-10 16:30:23 UTC
Edhelbrien wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
Elinarien wrote:
Or perhaps people should get out there and mine the high-sec ores to take advantage of the high prices and satisfy the demand....

As said much earlier in this thread, mining low-end ore in nullsec is not a rational solution, as the mining location, refining location, trading locationand production locationare often separate (and, concerning the mining location, required to change as industry index go up and roamers swarms around), often inferior to the highsec equivalents and the logistic between them much more bothersome than "autopilot a freigther from A to B", to the point it simply dont makes sense to do something else than "buy minerals in jita, compress them in 425mm railguns, import the railguns, reprocess the railguns and haul the minerals for one trip only"

TL; DR: Mining low-end ore (veldspar and scordite, for instance) is much less viable in nullsec than in high. That leaves the miners in nullsec (lol) with high-end ores, which they end up overproducing stupidely fast (as I said earlier, the veldspar part of a rokh requires 11 time less mining than the megacyte part. And that's for a t3 battleship, probably the class of ship that requires the most high-end ores).
To put it in another way, if you have more than 1 miner mining arkonor for 11 mining veldspar, megacyte is in overproduction.


But what is preventing you from going into high sec for a while to cash out on the current price? Nobody is forcing anyone to mine in null/low. As long as there will be more than 1 miner in null for every 11 in high, you will make more money in high. So if you want money, go to high. If you want to stay in null, find another way to reduce the amount of miners in null or increase the amount of null minerals required. (I don't even think the option 2 is even possible without also increasing the requirement of high sec minerals.) So kill null miners till they say "**** mining" or go mine in high for more $$$.


Given the current prices I've never quite understood why the big null alliances haven't muscled their way into high sec. All it would take is a constant presence of theirs across some of the more productive high sec mining areas coupled with threats and ganks in order to clear away any competition and they could have unrivalled access to the belts.

Rather than flogging a dead horse they should go where the money is.


It probably cost more total isk to damage the current miner to get price 10% higher for themself than that 10% would generate. You can't really stop miner from mining unless the prices crash. You can't limit the access of miners to rocks in high as tehre are no chokepoints to enter. Rocks spawn in every systems. Will you kill anybody on sight just in case they might mine one way or another? You can fit a barge in a GSC to leave Jita looking like an industrialist just hauling goods with the can trick to grow your cargo hold a bit and then unload all in a remote high sec system to mine far away from the ganking.

Another "solution" is to find who haul null minerals to the market in high sec and blowup those hauler. All minerals lost in the void is minerals not generating offer to drive the price down.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#192 - 2012-09-10 16:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
If you think like an industrialist, it's not surprising that low end ores/minerals are worth more money overall than the high-ends. Think of iron and gold: gold is worth far more per ounce than iron, yet iron is far more valuable overall than gold is -- simply because it is in far greater demand.

The entire industrial backbone of New Eden is based on Trit. Nothing in New Eden gets built without it. Thus, it will always be in constant demand, and the supply is only constrained by the number of miners harvesting it. (There's no lack of Veldspar rocks out there, that's for sure.) So why are the prices of the low-end ores and minerals so high? I think it's because CCP's campaign against botters has borne fruit -- fewer miners are out there in the belts, or at least less ore mined per hour. (Nerfing the drone poop also had a big effect.)

The amount of Trit and Pye needed for manufacturing has changed a bit, but not so radically that it would explain the huge profitability of the low-end minerals. I think the real answer is that not enough low-end ores are being mined to satisfy demand -- this may have been why CCP rebalanced the barges and exhumers. Mining is not an attractive profession: it's a relatively low ISK/hr, it's not exciting, and it requires a fairly large up-front investment to do efficiently. CCP had to find a way to make mining worthwhile for people to do as a profession, even in small one and two man corps. The part-time miners and weekend roid warriors don't really change the equation all that much. It's the intensive, full-time miners that are required.

As a hisec miner, of course, I'm loving this state of affairs. I can finally make a decent living by mining and selling my minerals on the market. I've got a decent cheap solo barge (the Retriever), a a decent cheap fleet barge (the Covetor). I've got a tanky barge (Procurer, Skiff) for those rare occasions when I need to venture into lowsec. Once my wallet gets fatter, I can move up to the Mackinaw or the Hulk for my crews...though to be honest, I haven't found much reason to do so yet.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#193 - 2012-09-11 13:12:54 UTC
The "problem" (and I remain unconvinced there is one) is that Megacyte, Zydrine and Nocxium are in overabundance in null-sec. So they bring it back to hi-sec. And at that point, they crash the market because it really doesn't take much to push the hi-sec volume. Think of how much Megacyte would fit in a freighter (uncompressed). Hint: It's enough to satisfy EVERY real buy order in Jita five times over.

On the other hand, Tritanium, while common, is (as others have mentioned) the backbone of production. It's the steel of Eve. So it presents massive logistics problems which actually drives UP its price. If I'm a hi-sec miner acting rationally, I have to factor in haul time into the equation. If Veldspar and any other ore are identical in price, it's still to my benefit to mine the other ore because I'll be able to have a more lucrative transport run when I fill one up. Scordite suffers from this as well (with Scordite being < any other mineral besides Veldspar in terms of logistical ease). So You need to compensate me (as a miner) for the PITA factor of filling up an Iteron with crap (a full iteron of tritanium is $21mil...)

I don't have the numbers for yield on a maxed Mackinaw at my finger but the numbers are stark. Here's the value for a full hold of various mineral mixes (i.e. you mined one ore exclusively)

Veldspar: $20.9mil
Scordite: $29.8mil
Pyrox: $64mil
Plagioclase: $81mil
Omber: $152.5mil
Kernite: $192mil

The more your time sink skews towards travel, the more you're going to skew towards the higher items. With this analysis, in certain parts of space, Omber might actually be the rational mining choice. If your time is half spent mining and half traveling (a probably extreme example) then Omber looks roughly the same as Plagioclase to you.
Doddy
Excidium.
#194 - 2012-09-11 13:35:40 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:

The entire industrial backbone of New Eden is based on Trit. Nothing in New Eden gets built without it..


Quite a lot does actually ....
Tanner Mirabel
Future Tech Industries
#195 - 2012-09-11 13:45:08 UTC
One of the differences between mining in 0.0 and Hi sec is that in 0.0 you can fly to a belt and there will be ore to mine. I haven't done much mining in a while and I thought I would do a bit last night. I checked around 10 systems around my home base last night and the best I could find was a few Veldspar pebbles. Many belts were literally empty, completely void of roid. I think this is why the prices are the way they are. demand is so high a lot of hi sec has been sucked dry and most people won't go to low sec to mine so prices just go up. I think if the amount of ore that respawned was increased slightly then there would be more for people to mine and supply would increase leading to prices easing off.
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#196 - 2012-09-11 13:47:30 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
This Post... it is strong in the fail... *recycle process activated* ... *whooosh*... the air now free of whine.


The force is weak in this one. Nothing to see move along.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#197 - 2012-09-11 13:57:38 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:

The entire industrial backbone of New Eden is based on Trit. Nothing in New Eden gets built without it..


Quite a lot does actually ....


Too my knowledge, the only thing that gets built trit free is POS modules... everything else either directly relies upon trit or needs it as a sub-component further down in the chain... I don't know alot about boosters so they may only require gas

Sure, there's some random side things like Multi-spectral jammers (56 isogen, 44 nocxium) that don't require trit but it's not significant hyperbole to say everything in New Eden relies on Trit (and, to a lesser degree, pyerite).
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#198 - 2012-09-11 16:14:09 UTC
Tanner Mirabel wrote:
One of the differences between mining in 0.0 and Hi sec is that in 0.0 you can fly to a belt and there will be ore to mine. I haven't done much mining in a while and I thought I would do a bit last night. I checked around 10 systems around my home base last night and the best I could find was a few Veldspar pebbles. Many belts were literally empty, completely void of roid. I think this is why the prices are the way they are. demand is so high a lot of hi sec has been sucked dry and most people won't go to low sec to mine so prices just go up. I think if the amount of ore that respawned was increased slightly then there would be more for people to mine and supply would increase leading to prices easing off.


If that's happening a lot, then one of two things is true: you're trying to mine in .9 or 1.0 systems, or you're too close to a trade hub (within 5 or 6 jumps). No creature on earth is lazier than a miner in EVE. Move to less crowded space and lower security systems and you'll find ore belts aplenty. Yes, there are higher costs with the longer logistics chain -- you have to budget for transport -- but even so you'll make a lot more ISK if you're willing to move your operations further out of the Empire core.

Also: Caldari space is the worst space in New Eden to do mining in because there are too many people. Never mind the can flippers and gankers; all the belts within 10 jumps of Jita are completely mined out. Gallente space is just as bad nowadays. Try some of the quieter systems in Khanid, Amarr, Ammatar, or Minmatar space.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#199 - 2012-09-11 16:19:18 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:

The entire industrial backbone of New Eden is based on Trit. Nothing in New Eden gets built without it..


Quite a lot does actually ....


Not really, because you'll need Trit somewhere in the chain (unless it's boosters or other drugs, I guess).

You basically have four classes of foundational materials in EVE: gas from gas clouds, ice products, PI materials, or minerals. POS fuel and boosters/drugs can be made without trit, but nearly any other manufactured item has trit somewhere in the production chain. (I'm sure there are exceptions that I can't think of off the top of my head, but not many.)

Tritanium is the rock upon which New Eden is built. Quite literally.
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#200 - 2012-09-11 16:20:20 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
Tanner Mirabel wrote:
One of the differences between mining in 0.0 and Hi sec is that in 0.0 you can fly to a belt and there will be ore to mine. I haven't done much mining in a while and I thought I would do a bit last night. I checked around 10 systems around my home base last night and the best I could find was a few Veldspar pebbles. Many belts were literally empty, completely void of roid. I think this is why the prices are the way they are. demand is so high a lot of hi sec has been sucked dry and most people won't go to low sec to mine so prices just go up. I think if the amount of ore that respawned was increased slightly then there would be more for people to mine and supply would increase leading to prices easing off.


If that's happening a lot, then one of two things is true: you're trying to mine in .9 or 1.0 systems, or you're too close to a trade hub (within 5 or 6 jumps). No creature on earth is lazier than a miner in EVE. Move to less crowded space and lower security systems and you'll find ore belts aplenty. Yes, there are higher costs with the longer logistics chain -- you have to budget for transport -- but even so you'll make a lot more ISK if you're willing to move your operations further out of the Empire core.

Also: Caldari space is the worst space in New Eden to do mining in because there are too many people. Never mind the can flippers and gankers; all the belts within 10 jumps of Jita are completely mined out. Gallente space is just as bad nowadays. Try some of the quieter systems in Khanid, Amarr, Ammatar, or Minmatar space.


My motto is, if I can edit my buy/sell orders at my trade hub, I'm too close to my trade hub. It's SHOCKING how barren you get just by jumping to Tash-Murkon or Kor-Azor from Amarr... Here's a hint, you can be two jumps from Amarr in Kor-Azor and have free reign of almost everything (heck, last time I looked, the copy slots in Kor-Azor prime were at around 12 days which is pretty good for hi-sec).