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Why Off Grid booster nerf won't happen (ever) or won't be what you think

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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2012-08-15 16:57:37 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Lots of people who fly solo or in small gangs don't want to dual box an alt to stay competitive against other solo pilots or small gangs.

Now if you want to have small scale combat against another solo or small gang you are at a severe disadvantage if someone in your gang is not dual boxing one.


Why is it that you feel this acute pressure to dual box when I don't - despite the fact that I have 2 perfectly skilled leadership alts for any given occasion? I'm not trying to say the system is great right now, but you present this as a doomsday case that it isn't really.

Like I said, we need to fix the core problems relating to gang boosting and then we can move them on grid.

-Liang



I am addressing the op in this thread. I do not know what your proposal is.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Now yeah that might not cause a problem for someone who never undocks unless they are with a fleet to help them blob everyone. But for others who like solo and small gang pvp it sucks.


Yeah that sucks, but I'm not talking about solo or small gangs vs small gangs.

I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#162 - 2012-08-15 17:03:51 UTC
Cearain wrote:

I am addressing the op in this thread. I do not know what your proposal is.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Now yeah that might not cause a problem for someone who never undocks unless they are with a fleet to help them blob everyone. But for others who like solo and small gang pvp it sucks.


I'm sorry, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't undock or that they only blob. I enjoy small gang PVP and my ideal fights are ones like this:
- http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_related&kll_id=28973 (Fight happened at top belt, I'm not sure why the Drake got shot by a POS)
- http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12714069 (They had way more that got away)
- http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12412424 (Again, they had way more)

A couple of nights ago I took a pair of Ishtars in against 7 BCs and they ran the **** away. But hey, you keep telling yourself that just because someone disagrees with you that they're the blobbers.

But really the problem here is that you're complaining that you overshipped for a fight and someone had an equalizer. Real pro of you there. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2012-08-15 17:08:12 UTC
Cearain wrote:

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.


How is this any different to someone officer fitting their frigate? Eve is not, has never been and will never be balanced around 1v1s. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you get into a fair fight in eve someone screwed up and that holds true at any size of engagement.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#164 - 2012-08-15 17:08:19 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Lots of people who fly solo or in small gangs don't want to dual box an alt to stay competitive against other solo pilots or small gangs.

Now if you want to have small scale combat against another solo or small gang you are at a severe disadvantage if someone in your gang is not dual boxing one.


Why is it that you feel this acute pressure to dual box when I don't - despite the fact that I have 2 perfectly skilled leadership alts for any given occasion? I'm not trying to say the system is great right now, but you present this as a doomsday case that it isn't really.

Like I said, we need to fix the core problems relating to gang boosting and then we can move them on grid.

-Liang



I am addressing the op in this thread. I do not know what your proposal is.

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.

Now yeah that might not cause a problem for someone who never undocks unless they are with a fleet to help them blob everyone. But for others who like solo and small gang pvp it sucks.


Yeah that sucks, but I'm not talking about solo or small gangs vs small gangs.

I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.


I think we both want the same thing - more and better opportunities for small scale pvpers. But I am looking at from the perspective that these ruin small scale enounters. The op will still suck for small scale pvpers.

In my experience as the size of the gang goes up so does the likelyhood that they will have a booster ship. Sure the op limits this to some extent but they will still have some people boosted.

Gang links are not the solution for small scale pvp. We need push ccp to develop more and improve upon the current mechanics that promote small scale pvp.

FW plexing is a great example of how to get allot of great small scale pvp. It could be improved allot. But it really works well at getting allot of good small scale fights. But the boosters are just shitting this up. Go into a medium fw plex in a cruiser and find a hookbill there guess what you will probably die before you can even target the hookbill long enough to get your drones on it. (they will just be popped anyway assuming they can catch the enemy).

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#165 - 2012-08-15 17:12:37 UTC
Cearain wrote:

FW plexing is a great example of how to get allot of great small scale pvp. It could be improved allot. But it really works well at getting allot of good small scale fights. But the boosters are just shitting this up. Go into a medium fw plex in a cruiser and find a hookbill there guess what you will probably die before you can even target the hookbill long enough to get your drones on it. (they will just be popped anyway assuming they can catch the enemy).


If a hookbill is killing you before you can even lock it, something's very wrong with the way you are PVPing. This kind of hyperbole is just ridiculous.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#166 - 2012-08-15 17:16:13 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Cearain wrote:

The accute pressure to dual box comes when you try to fight a frigate with your cruiser (let alone another frigate) only to find that frigate can point you at 40k and sensor damp you to 25k and is so fast and agile you can't possibly even target it let alone catch it. So you either need to call for back up and hope they can come or die a slow death. Yay fun times, great game.


How is this any different to someone officer fitting their frigate?.


Do you need an answer here? Or can you figure out why so many more ships are getting boosts than are fitting officer mods in pvp?
Yeep wrote:

Eve is not, has never been and will never be balanced around 1v1s. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you get into a fair fight in eve someone screwed up and that holds true at any size of engagement.



Actually there is an excellent balance for 1v1s in eve.

I don't know what you mean by "fair fight." Nor do I care. But I have been in tons of good fights where my error in piloting cost me a kill or a ship. You may not realize this can happen in eve. If that is the case you may want to explore some new territory. Small scale pvp can be allot of fun.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#167 - 2012-08-15 17:20:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:

FW plexing is a great example of how to get allot of great small scale pvp. It could be improved allot. But it really works well at getting allot of good small scale fights. But the boosters are just shitting this up. Go into a medium fw plex in a cruiser and find a hookbill there guess what you will probably die before you can even target the hookbill long enough to get your drones on it. (they will just be popped anyway assuming they can catch the enemy).


If a hookbill is killing you before you can even lock it, something's very wrong with the way you are PVPing. This kind of hyperbole is just ridiculous.

-Liang



Yeah well I am not the best pilot but I'm not the worst either. Even though we hang out in the same part of new eden, I think you haven't fought the same pilots, with the same boosters that I have.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#168 - 2012-08-15 17:24:02 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Yeah well I am not the best pilot but I'm not the worst either. Even though we hang out in the same part of new eden, I think you haven't fought the same pilots, with the same boosters that I have.


Actually, I have fought the same people you have - and more. I just don't complain about it and make excuses like you do.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-08-15 17:25:17 UTC
Cearain wrote:

I don't know what you mean by "fair fight." Nor do I care. But I have been in tons of good fights where my error in piloting cost me a kill or a ship. You may not realize this can happen in eve. If that is the case you may want to explore some new territory. Small scale pvp can be allot of fun.


And we're back to "I'm better at pvp than you so my opinions count for more".

If the pilot you're attempting to 1v1 has fleet bonuses then its not a 1v1, its 1v2. Its irrelevant whether that 2nd pilot is an alt or not. You're complaining you can't win a 2v1 when the game gives you plenty of options to make that a 2v2 or even a 3v1, whether you go make some friends or bring an alt, the choice is yours.

As for the officer mods, you could fight a frigate with officer mods and never know, much like you might never know if theres an offgrid booster. You're not entitled to know every factor involved in every fight, nor should you be. Is officer fitting your frigate also "cheating"?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#170 - 2012-08-15 17:37:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Yeah well I am not the best pilot but I'm not the worst either. Even though we hang out in the same part of new eden, I think you haven't fought the same pilots, with the same boosters that I have.


Actually, I have fought the same people you have - and more. I just don't complain about it and make excuses like you do.

-Liang



No you haven't. I looked at your killboard and the links you provided. I notice very few kills outside of ammamake. Afraid to leave the alt boosters behind?

Very nice kills against eve university BTW. Whats that again? Oh yeah, thats the alliance where people who are new to eve can learn basic mechanics isn't it?

Again I am not saying I am the best at pvp. However, there is nothing in either of our killboards that would suggest you somehow outclass me in pvp. So your claim that I am just doing it wrong is going to fly unless you get more specific.

And no I didn't ship up for the fights I have had against boosted frigates. I just jump in the plex in whatever ship I happen to be in at the time. Roll I actually go roaming system to system since I don't rely on alt boosters in a pos to be an iwin button.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#171 - 2012-08-15 17:45:59 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I don't know what you mean by "fair fight." Nor do I care. But I have been in tons of good fights where my error in piloting cost me a kill or a ship. You may not realize this can happen in eve. If that is the case you may want to explore some new territory. Small scale pvp can be allot of fun.


And we're back to "I'm better at pvp than you so my opinions count for more".


I am not going in that direction with you. Liang is taking that tact and I am not giving him any ground.

The above was a direct response to your post. You left your post out.


Yeep wrote:

If the pilot you're attempting to 1v1 has fleet bonuses then its not a 1v1, its 1v2. Its irrelevant whether that 2nd pilot is an alt or not. You're complaining you can't win a 2v1 when the game gives you plenty of options to make that a 2v2 or even a 3v1, whether you go make some friends or bring an alt, the choice is yours.

As for the officer mods, you could fight a frigate with officer mods and never know, much like you might never know if theres an offgrid booster. You're not entitled to know every factor involved in every fight, nor should you be. Is officer fitting your frigate also "cheating"?



Ok there are allot of differences in the risk reward of using officer mods. But the main reason I don't mind people flying with officer mods is I could do it too - without having to dual box alts.

Really I actually like allot of the bonuses boosters offer. I think they add another layer of complexity to eve pvp. I wouldn't mind them if I could get them without dual boxing an alt. For example let me have buy minmatar crew that gives the same bonuses as a loki booster. Then I won't mind - even though they will cost isk. At least I could compete without dual boxing. I just hate hate hate hate dualboxing in a game that I am supposed to be having fun in.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#172 - 2012-08-15 17:50:56 UTC
Liang coming again with straw man arguments, should be nicknamed Liang "straw man" Nuren.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#173 - 2012-08-15 17:54:03 UTC
Quote:
I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.


So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2012-08-15 17:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Yeep
Cearain wrote:

Ok there are allot of differences in the risk reward of using officer mods. But the main reason I don't mind people flying with officer mods is I could do it too - without having to dual box alts.

Really I actually like allot of the bonuses boosters offer. I think they add another layer of complexity to eve pvp. I wouldn't mind them if I could get them without dual boxing an alt. For example let me have buy minmatar crew that gives the same bonuses as a loki booster. Then I won't mind - even though they will cost isk. At least I could compete without dual boxing. I just hate hate hate hate dualboxing in a game that I am supposed to be having fun in.


At this point you're trying to argue that having more accounts (whether controlled by one person or not) in an MMO shouldn't give an advantage and thats going to be a tough sell. I've done plenty of small scale pvp in the (admittedly distant) past, even some solo stuff (ask me about taking out an entire BoB t2 frigate gang in an Oneiros some time) but if I'm flying solo and I lose to 2 people thats my fault for engaging outnumbered, not the fault of the 2 people for breaking the non-existant sanctity of the 1v1.

It doesn't matter if those 2 people are 1 guy and an alt or 2 seperate physical people, its still 2v1. All other things being equal 2 on grid ships piloted by different people should beat 1 on grid ship and 1 offgrid booster.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#175 - 2012-08-15 17:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Yeep wrote:


At this point you're trying to argue that having more accounts (whether controlled by one person or not) in an MMO shouldn't give an advantage and thats going to be a tough sell. I've done plenty of small scale pvp in the (admittedly distant) past, even some solo stuff (ask me about taking out an entire BoB t2 frigate gang in an Oneiros some time) but if I'm flying solo and I lose to 2 people thats my fault for engaging outnumbered, not the fault of the 2 people for breaking the non-existant sanctity of the 1v1.

It doesn't matter if those 2 people are 1 guy and an alt or 2 seperate physical people, its still 2v1. All other things being equal 2 on grid ships piloted by different people should beat 1 on grid ship and 1 offgrid booster.



Yeah, people are always going to have alts. I don't get the argument

"I want OGB removed because I 2v1ed and lost!"

Lmao.

Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.


So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.


Nice job just pulling things out of your ass and assuming things.

Fighting outnumbered isn't easy, without OGBs it will be damn near impossible.

And I don't care about my ego at all, I don't know where you are getting these random accusations. And I never brag to anybody about how l33t I am or how awesome I am at PvP. I don't like it if somebody doesn't post on their main, but that is nothing like that.


If you can't come up with a logical argument and instead resort to making things up and insulting then I can't take you seriously.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2012-08-15 18:00:40 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.


So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.


Not emptyquoting.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#177 - 2012-08-15 18:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about those of us that want to be able to fight outnumbered and still have a chance of winning. Without OGBs this becomes so hard that it isn't even worth doing.


So it's about ego. You want to be able to talk about how you fight outnumbered and win, and then brag to all your friends about it what an elite PVPer you are.

Fighting outnumbered is supposed to be hard. "I can't fight outnumbered and win" isn't a balance argument.


Not emptyquoting.



LOL, you resorted to insults and false assumptions too?

Great to know you can't counter my arguments. Means I win. Twisted

You can't counter OGBs in the game so you whine on the forums.

You can't counter my arguments on the forums so you try to slander me.

This is so funny. LolLolLolLol
Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#178 - 2012-08-15 18:05:32 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Nice job just pulling things out of your ass and assuming things.

Fighting outnumbered isn't easy, without OGBs it will be damn near impossible.

And I don't care about my ego at all, I don't know where you are getting these random accusations. And I never brag to anybody about how l33t I am or how awesome I am at PvP. I don't like it if somebody doesn't post on their main, but that is nothing like that.


If you can't come up with a logical argument and instead resort to making things up and insulting then I can't take you seriously.


The kid is strong with this one, read the whole thread idiot.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2012-08-15 18:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Diesel47 wrote:
You can't counter my arguments on the forums so you try to slander me.

This is so funny. LolLolLolLol


The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Diesel47 wrote:
And this isn't the stuff I was talking about. I'm more worried about what will happen to the small gangs of pilots who like to fight outnumbered vs blobs. Now that is a true challenge and very fun if you pull it off. And the OGB is a MAJOR part of them being able to do something like this without 100% failing every time.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#180 - 2012-08-15 18:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
You can't counter my arguments on the forums so you try to slander me.

This is so funny. LolLolLolLol


The truth hurts, doesn't it?


Yeah my stomach is bursting with the lolz. Lol


The truth hurts soooooooo much, one could say that it is killing me. LolLol