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Active armour tank fitting: PvE
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Equus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-08-14 00:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Equus
This is an honest question, so forgive my newbness, but normally I have been flying shield boats for PvE, I just recently got an alt into a dominix, and while I know there are shield fits, I went armour as either than buffer for PvP I have never tried it.

Now, is it just me or are shield boosters easier to fit? A lot of active armour fits that I have seen run two repairers having a grid requirement of around 2300 each, that seems to be a large chunk when you want to try and fit a cap booster and rails to boot. am I missing something, that seems like an awful lot of grid (note: I understand shields require more cpu), is just that I am trying to fit a Domi and they have it scaled so that it is harder to fit a domi with rails then say a blaster ship?

Are armour reps that much harder to fit than shield boosters, or am I seeing things through rose coloured glasses?

Just curious as to other peoples experiences, and any advice for fitting armour tanks is appreciated.

EDIT:
Also, there are things like a shield boost amplifier, is there an armour equivalent that I am missing?

edit 2: mistype in subject
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-08-14 00:54:58 UTC
Because... well, I don't know why.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-08-14 00:57:34 UTC
Dominatrix is a drone boat. You fit your armor tank, kill with drones, anything else you fit is just nice extra.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#4 - 2012-08-14 01:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasutra
Equus wrote:
A lot of active armour fits that I have seen run two repairers having a grid requirement of around 2300 each, that seems to be a large chunk when you want to try and fit a cap booster and rails to boot. am I missing something, that seems like an awful lot of grid


Dual LAR fits should be reserved for AFKboats or those who are having the Domi act as the tanking part of a missioning duo. Because yes, it really does screw up your ability to fit a proper rack of guns.

If you want to armor tank and meaningfully fire your guns, you're looking at a single LAR and 350mm rails.

But yes, the Dominix works rather well shield tanked, especially now that we have drone damage augmentors. The navy version does it somewhat better, though. Exchanges most of the grid issues for CPU issues.

Equus wrote:
Also, there are things like a shield boost amplifier, is there an armour equivalent that I am missing?

Nope, no equivalent.

Caleidascope wrote:
Dominatrix is a drone boat. You fit your armor tank, kill with drones, anything else you fit is just nice extra.

IMO, this attitude results in a whole lot of underused Domis. Yes, it has great drone bonuses. It also happens to have a gun bonus, six gun hardpoints, and no good reason not to take advantage of them.
Siyis Rholh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-08-14 01:31:27 UTC
Equus wrote:
Also, there are things like a shield boost amplifier, is there an armour equivalent that I am missing?


No module, but there's a rig for it (Auxiliary Nano Pump at +15% armor repair amount for 100 calibration points for T1 version).

As for why they have bigger fitting reqs, I have no idea. I'd say it'd make sense if the supposedly armor tank ships are designed accordingly but that's a bit dodgy as a general rule for Amarr ships considering they have enough headache fitting bigger lasers already, so yeah, I don't know.

Armor repairers as a rule of thumb (correct me if I'm wrong) have worse repair amount / time but better repair amount / cap. It's probably worth mentioning that deadspace shield boosters have obscenely much better efficiency compared to equivalent T2 than deadspace reppers, though.

Large Armor Repairer II: 400 cap = 800 repair @ 15sec cycle; 53.33 / s & 2.0 / cap
Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer: 400 cap = 1120 repair @ 15sec cycle; 74.66 / s & 2.8 / cap

Large Shield Booster II: 160 cap = 240 repair @ 4sec cycle; 60 / s & 1.5 / cap
Gist X-type Large Shield Booster: 102 cap = 269 repair @ 3.2sec cycle; 84.06 / s & 2.64 / cap

Honorable mention:
Gist X-type X-large Shield Booster: 204 cap = 672 repair @ 4sec cycle; 168/s & 3.29 / cap

Take the comparison with a grain of salt. XLSB doesn't have an armor equivalent.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-08-14 02:02:22 UTC
Kasutra wrote:

Caleidascope wrote:
Dominatrix is a drone boat. You fit your armor tank, kill with drones, anything else you fit is just nice extra.

IMO, this attitude results in a whole lot of underused Domis. Yes, it has great drone bonuses. It also happens to have a gun bonus, six gun hardpoints, and no good reason not to take advantage of them.

OP brought up issue of fitting armor tank and rail guns. Do you propose to the OP that he should concentrate on rail guns and sacrifice his tank , or concentrate on tank and sacrifice the rail guns?

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#7 - 2012-08-14 02:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Caldari 5
Just threw some very quick fits together in pyfa
Rail Dominix out DPSs my Abaddon that I do use in missions, but my Abaddon out tanks the Dominix, and the Blaster Dominix out DPSs the Rail variation, but good luck catching your target unless someone else is doing the tanking.

All figures with all V skills
Dominix Rail = 54.1k EHP, 537.5 sustained Tank, 743 DPS
Abaddon = 84.2k EHP, 699 sustained Tank, 469 DPS
Dominix Blaster = 54.1k EHP, 537.5 sustained Tank, 863 DPS

[Dominix, Rail]

Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Dual 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Dual 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Ogre II x5

[Abaddon, Mission Runner BEAM]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Vespa II x2
Hammerhead II x3


[Dominix, Blaster]

Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Ogre II x5
Equus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-08-14 03:45:51 UTC
Thanks for the responses all, it does seem armour could use a little love, if only as it is harder to fit more gank when armour tanking, and yes I know, insert added utility comments here. On this line of thought it may be nice for armour to have some mid slot items that boost armour tanking, shields have low slot items that boost shield tanks so I don't think it is too far out of wack.

I did play with the reactive hardener a little tonight, and it was ok, but only ok, it needs to bring higher resists so it is more in line with the invulnerability field and bring the cap use down to a similar level as well.

Now I am just rambling, thanks for the replies all.

Regards.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#9 - 2012-08-14 11:51:30 UTC
Caleidascope wrote:
Kasutra wrote:
IMO, this attitude results in a whole lot of underused Domis. Yes, it has great drone bonuses. It also happens to have a gun bonus, six gun hardpoints, and no good reason not to take advantage of them.

OP brought up issue of fitting armor tank and rail guns. Do you propose to the OP that he should concentrate on rail guns and sacrifice his tank , or concentrate on tank and sacrifice the rail guns?

I suggested that he not massively overtank (which dual LAR setups do), and keep the rails. That's what I wrote, right? What?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#10 - 2012-08-14 12:03:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Caldari 5 wrote:
3 terribly bad fits


What the heck are those? Not a single damage mod in sight, all of them massively over tanked, and all of them using obscene amounts of fitting just for cap stability, you have a blaster boat with no prop mod, a random neut on another one, and one of them has more cap mods than it has guns.

WHY!? FOR THE LOVE OF BOB WHY!?
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-08-14 13:00:54 UTC
Equus wrote:
Thanks for the responses all, it does seem armour could use a little love, if only as it is harder to fit more gank when armour tanking, and yes I know, insert added utility comments here. On this line of thought it may be nice for armour to have some mid slot items that boost armour tanking, shields have low slot items that boost shield tanks so I don't think it is too far out of wack.

.



There are a variety of balance factors in place between shield and armor. Utility mids are the prime one for armor when compared to damage mods on shield tanks. Doesn't mean much for pvp unfortunately, which is a potential problem. Another is that armor tanks are generally fit to be cap stable, shield tanks usually aren't unless you're using a deadspace booster.

Armor tanks work just fine for missions, but I would really reccomend looking into a shield tank. Especially if you have experience shield tanking already. All the Gallente drone boats can fit excellent passive shield tanks, which now allow them to take advantage of the Drone Damage Augmentor.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-08-14 13:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Caldari 5 wrote:

[Abaddon, Mission Runner BEAM]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Damage Control II
Large Armor Repairer II
Large Armor Repairer II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Vespa II x2
Hammerhead II x3


What is this **** fit?

1) Fit 8x guns. You only have 316 turret dps with max skills in this fit, which is pathetic.
2) Use a single rep tank on the Abaddon, unless you really really need that 1k dps tank.
3) Use a reactive hardener instead of an EANM when you already have 2x hardeners fitted
4) Use mega pulse with Scorch. Need more range? Use an Apocalypse instead of an Abaddon.
5) Any setup that doesn't have at least a damage mod is bad.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-08-14 16:47:21 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
3 terribly bad fits


What the heck are those? Not a single damage mod in sight, all of them massively over tanked, and all of them using obscene amounts of fitting just for cap stability, you have a blaster boat with no prop mod, a random neut on another one, and one of them has more cap mods than it has guns.

WHY!? FOR THE LOVE OF BOB WHY!?

Yeeeeaaaap. Gonna agree with this guy here. I suck at Eve and even I know a bad fit when I see one.

Edit: Surely he was joking? Lol

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-08-14 21:41:20 UTC
Equus wrote:
Thanks for the responses all, it does seem armour could use a little love, if only as it is harder to fit more gank when armour tanking, and yes I know, insert added utility comments here. On this line of thought it may be nice for armour to have some mid slot items that boost armour tanking, shields have low slot items that boost shield tanks so I don't think it is too far out of wack.

I did play with the reactive hardener a little tonight, and it was ok, but only ok, it needs to bring higher resists so it is more in line with the invulnerability field and bring the cap use down to a similar level as well.

Now I am just rambling, thanks for the replies all.

Regards.

In regard to armor mods for mid slots, I fit capacitor mods in mid slots, these mods allow me to run my armor reps for longer time resulting in more armor being repaired, resulting in larger armor tank.

Or you can try for hull tank. The hull reps go into mid slots. ☺

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#15 - 2012-08-15 06:45:30 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
I should probably never offer anyone advice on fitting ships in EVE


I'm glad we agree.
DankoShepard
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-08-31 02:39:51 UTC
Caleidascope wrote:
[quote=Equus]
Or you can try for hull tank. The hull reps go into mid slots. ☺


You are kidding ... right?
General Isk
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-08-31 04:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: General Isk
A higher dps AND tank than any domi's in thread so far, cant afk in it but it is cap stable and you wont run out of boosters before your 1000 dps finishes it. Dont triple ccc and use all mids for rechargers unless you wan to cripple the ship and afk in it exclusively.......

Domi - 972 DPS 630 TANK

6x Duel 250mm railgun ll

100mn Afterburner ll
Heavy capacitor booster ll
Omnidirectional Tracking link ll
Drone Navigation computer ll
Fleeting Prorulsion inhibitor

Larger armor repairer ll
2x Armor kinetic hardener ll
2x Armor thermic hardener ll
2x drone damage amp ll

Large auxillary nano pump l
Large nanobot Accelerator l
Large sentry damage augmentor l

5x gardes ll
5x ogres ll
5x hobgoblins ll
5x hammerheads ll
5x whatever you want

notice better tank, dps, speed, tracking, etc etc etc etc is it really worth fitting all them cap mods?? hell no it isnt, the web is for your guns when they close in on you trust me it helps dps alot, also if you drone rigging skills are poor just fit another tank rig untill they improve as this is an extremely tight fit (no implants needed) Shocked
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#18 - 2012-08-31 17:42:51 UTC
Equus wrote:
Thanks for the responses all, it does seem armour could use a little love, if only as it is harder to fit more gank when armour tanking, and yes I know, insert added utility comments here. On this line of thought it may be nice for armour to have some mid slot items that boost armour tanking, shields have low slot items that boost shield tanks so I don't think it is too far out of wack.

I did play with the reactive hardener a little tonight, and it was ok, but only ok, it needs to bring higher resists so it is more in line with the invulnerability field and bring the cap use down to a similar level as well.

Now I am just rambling, thanks for the replies all.

Regards.



But you seem to miss the point that the normal weapons on armor tanks (hybrids and lasers) do more base damage than normal weapons on shield tanks. There is a subtle balance to EvE and the best way to see it is to try them all. While flying triple damage mod missiles and projectiles are the norm, you can equal that DPS with less damage mods on hybrids and lasers.

In general armor tanks have bigger powergrids and have larger drone bays to supplement their DPS. Balance in EvE isn't perfect, but it's better than most give it credit for. For armor tanks, I prefer to go with higher resistance as opposed to more rep power. You might want to consider that as natural armor resists start out at a higher value than shields. Not to mention, that most armor tanks have an extra midslot to allow the use of ECCM to slow down Guristas that shield tanks don't have.

Also armor has 2 rigs: 1) the Aux nano pump that increases armor rep amount, and the 2) Nanobot accelerator that reduces the time of armor reps (but results in more cap use). If you are trying to use an armor tank the same way you use a shield tanked ship, you are doing it wrong. Oh and the RAH just needs a skill to reduce cap use, the un-stacking nerfed armor resistance does have value, making it like the Invul field would be wrong, unless you also add a shield resistance amp like the EANM II. I tend to like the fact that shield and armor tanks are different.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#19 - 2012-08-31 18:37:39 UTC
Veryez wrote:
Equus wrote:
Thanks for the responses all, it does seem armour could use a little love, if only as it is harder to fit more gank when armour tanking, and yes I know, insert added utility comments here. On this line of thought it may be nice for armour to have some mid slot items that boost armour tanking, shields have low slot items that boost shield tanks so I don't think it is too far out of wack.

I did play with the reactive hardener a little tonight, and it was ok, but only ok, it needs to bring higher resists so it is more in line with the invulnerability field and bring the cap use down to a similar level as well.

Now I am just rambling, thanks for the replies all.

Regards.



But you seem to miss the point that the normal weapons on armor tanks (hybrids and lasers) do more base damage than normal weapons on shield tanks. There is a subtle balance to EvE and the best way to see it is to try them all. While flying triple damage mod missiles and projectiles are the norm, you can equal that DPS with less damage mods on hybrids and lasers.

In general armor tanks have bigger powergrids and have larger drone bays to supplement their DPS. Balance in EvE isn't perfect, but it's better than most give it credit for. For armor tanks, I prefer to go with higher resistance as opposed to more rep power. You might want to consider that as natural armor resists start out at a higher value than shields. Not to mention, that most armor tanks have an extra midslot to allow the use of ECCM to slow down Guristas that shield tanks don't have.

Also armor has 2 rigs: 1) the Aux nano pump that increases armor rep amount, and the 2) Nanobot accelerator that reduces the time of armor reps (but results in more cap use). If you are trying to use an armor tank the same way you use a shield tanked ship, you are doing it wrong. Oh and the RAH just needs a skill to reduce cap use, the un-stacking nerfed armor resistance does have value, making it like the Invul field would be wrong, unless you also add a shield resistance amp like the EANM II. I tend to like the fact that shield and armor tanks are different.


Missiles versus guns:
Hit Quality
Effective range
Burst Damage

That is all.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#20 - 2012-09-01 02:51:22 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Missiles versus guns


Guns and Missiles are different. They are both good or bad in different situations.
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