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[Winter] Exploration Frigate Rebalance

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Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#101 - 2012-08-14 21:53:47 UTC
What would be great to see alongside these hull tweaks is a wider role for the analyzer and codebreaker modules they fit so these hulls may see more diverse uses.

I want to sneak a Heron into hostile territory and hack hostile sov structures and PoCos.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#102 - 2012-08-14 22:26:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

Nerfing the Imicus for PVP. The kicker here is that this ship isn't designed for PVP.

What I am up in arms about (I'm not really ;-) is that if this trend is set then the Helios will be gimped because of similar reasoning. The first thing you do after you train for a Helios is training for another races Cover Ops because you realize how much it sucks.

If they actually come through with light salvager drones then I would be fine with the loss of a high slot.


The Helios is the best covops and the only reason I ever trained another was because it looks so ******* ugly since they nerfed it's face.

-Liang

Ed: I should say that I've got perhaps 100 kills in a Helios. It's hard to know because I didn't post mails back then. :P


How about we get ships that are good for their role rather than PVP? You seen to be skewed toward the PvP side of things rather than providing feedback for a exploration/scout vessel.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#103 - 2012-08-14 22:54:00 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:

How about we get ships that are good for their role rather than PVP? You seen to be skewed toward the PvP side of things rather than providing feedback for a exploration/scout vessel.


I've already illustrated that cloaks are not mandatory in low sec, and that the Imicus is in fact a superior vessel to the other ships. Back under your bridge, troll.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kate Stenton
Foundation Enterprises
#104 - 2012-08-14 23:50:54 UTC
I'm excited! I fly my Imicus more than anything. Although it's not my favorite ship, exploration is a big reason I play EVE and any buffs to my favorite activity is welcome!

While the 2 highs the Imicus retains is a bit disappointing, the extra low + extra drone will make clearing sites much faster so I guess it's fair.

I do need to complain about the role bonus, which is a bit worthless. I realize it will probably let you complete a half cycle before you're in looting range but that's only an extra second or so.

I would much rather have a role bonus that reduces probe flight time or probe launcher cycle time.

In any event, the ships will be much more capable, so I suppose the role bonus is just icing.

Thanks for the update, and thanks for the buffs.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#105 - 2012-08-14 23:53:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

How about we get ships that are good for their role rather than PVP? You seen to be skewed toward the PvP side of things rather than providing feedback for a exploration/scout vessel.


I've already illustrated that cloaks are not mandatory in low sec, and that the Imicus is in fact a superior vessel to the other ships. Back under your bridge, troll.

-Liang


Aren't you the one that started talking about PvPing in a Helious ?-)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#106 - 2012-08-14 23:55:37 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

How about we get ships that are good for their role rather than PVP? You seen to be skewed toward the PvP side of things rather than providing feedback for a exploration/scout vessel.


I've already illustrated that cloaks are not mandatory in low sec, and that the Imicus is in fact a superior vessel to the other ships. Back under your bridge, troll.

-Liang


Aren't you the one that started talking about PvPing in a Helious ?-)


Again: It is not mandatory to fit a cloak to this ship. It does not need three high slots. You're trolling because you're bored at work.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#107 - 2012-08-15 00:19:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:

How about we get ships that are good for their role rather than PVP? You seen to be skewed toward the PvP side of things rather than providing feedback for a exploration/scout vessel.


I've already illustrated that cloaks are not mandatory in low sec, and that the Imicus is in fact a superior vessel to the other ships. Back under your bridge, troll.

-Liang


Aren't you the one that started talking about PvPing in a Helious ?-)


Again: It is not mandatory to fit a cloak to this ship. It does not need three high slots. You're trolling because you're bored at work.

-Liang


I think you confused yourself. I agreed with you with the Imicus but then we started talking about the Helios (take that spell correcter!). I conceded on the Imicus not the Helios. A covert ops ship needs a cloak + probe + utility high. Otherwise it will be subpar as scout/explorer. You seem to want the ship (again Helios not the Imicus) to be better at PVP rather than as a scout/explorer.

I'm on vacation again. Don't worry as I go back tomorrow. You can have free reign of the forums back then ;-)
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-08-15 00:22:18 UTC
Manssell wrote:

I agree that the range bonuses should also apply to the salvager module too and kinda agree with Takeshi that the bonuses themselves may not be that useful to begin with. As a new player I would think the cycle time, and scan strength are great. But a drone bonus would be much more useful than the range bonus.

Awesome stuff.


Agreed. Don't see the point at all of the range bonuses. Those ships move so quickly anyway that the time it takes to cover even another 5km is negligible. The only possible reason I could see for it to make a difference is if you're orbiting the item you're hacking while being shot at and the increased range allows you to orbit at a higher velocity for speed tanking purposes.

Still think it would make more sense to buff the drones if that's what they'll be relying on. Even a +5% dmg and/or speed boost for drones per frigate level would make a big difference.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#109 - 2012-08-15 00:23:28 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:

I think you confused yourself. I agreed with you with the Imicus but then we started talking about the Helios (take that spell correcter!). I conceded on the Imicus not the Helios. A covert ops ship needs a cloak + probe + utility high. Otherwise it will be subpar as scout/explorer. You seem to want the ship (again Helios not the Imicus) to be better at PVP rather than as a scout/explorer.

I'm on vacation again. Don't worry as I go back tomorrow. You can have free reign of the forums back then ;-)


I'm willing to concede that the Helios is very very slightly lacking in terms of exploration. But it isn't so bad and I'm fine with the variety of a 2 high slot covops because of the extra speed and tank it has.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-08-15 01:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
The imicus is clearly the best of these designs, as with 4 drones you'll kite better and get through the site faster. Just sayin' that there is one ship that's clearly head and shoulders above the rest, so it'll result in 'Rifterisation', where only one ship of that type is used.

* Penalise the imicus' awesome drone abilities by reducing cargobay (that drone bay is huge for a frigate).
* The caldari don't need to rely on drones because of their awesome missile abilities (missiles are suicide drones, when you think about it). Give the heron some racial differentiation by giving it no drones but 3 missile slots and a slightly bigger cargo bay to hold more ammo.
* Even though the amarr are becoming the 2nd drone race, the reasons for giving yet another of their frigates drone abilities doesn't fit, because lasers don't use ammo like conventional guns. Give the Magnate 3 lasers and a range bonus so it can kite with its lasers instead of drones.

We're seeing more and more frigates rely on drones now, to the point that it's clearly the best weapon system to be training. I don't think this is a good way to go, 'cause it comes down to 'which drone ship do I want to fly'? At the moment, the answer is 'gallente, dumbass'.

Overall though, I like the role they get now; good for highsec profession sites. Oh, and as others have pointed out, a slight increase in range to hacking/analysing modules is useless, come up with something better Lol

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-08-15 02:23:45 UTC
I'm not sure I'm a fan of the 50% range bonus since you have to get so close to actually open up one of those things. I think I'd prefer a flat bonus to % chance to open something.

I can has blogging skills!
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2012-08-15 02:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
Here's some changes I thought would be more useful; take note of the variations to racial weapons, and the role bonus.

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
20% increase to the optimal range of small lasers
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 2 M (+1), 3 L, 3 turrets (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+9), 230 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 220(-22)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-5) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
10% increase to light missile and rocket flight time
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M , 2 L (+1), 3 launchers (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+11), 270 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 210(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5/ 10 (+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+263.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+5m3 increase to drone bay size
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 20 PWG, 240 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 230(-59)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 25(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 350 (+30)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+20% increase to projectile weapon falloff
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+1), 2 L , 3 turret (+1)
Fittings: 30 PWG (+10), 240 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 200(-74)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-1) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+80)

It's possible a tracking bonus for the Probe would be more useful, as it'd be more likely to use artillery for kiting. Also, my PG numbers may not be entirely enough for some of the weapon fits, but they're a closer indication of what'd be required.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#113 - 2012-08-15 04:18:05 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
What would be great to see alongside these hull tweaks is a wider role for the analyzer and codebreaker modules they fit so these hulls may see more diverse uses.

I want to sneak a Heron into hostile territory and hack hostile sov structures and PoCos.


Woooo! Now somebody is thinking! Something like this would be amazing. ^5

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-08-15 05:23:30 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
What would be great to see alongside these hull tweaks is a wider role for the analyzer and codebreaker modules they fit so these hulls may see more diverse uses.

I want to sneak a Heron into hostile territory and hack hostile sov structures and PoCos.


Woooo! Now somebody is thinking! Something like this would be amazing. ^5

Oh my god yes. Do this!

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Boltorano
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-08-15 07:35:00 UTC
While I agree that the role bonus is a bit "meh", I love everything else. Thank you so much for not listening to the people who think the only weapons a Caldari ship should have are missiles.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-08-15 07:45:36 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Here's some changes I thought would be more useful; take note of the variations to racial weapons, and the role bonus.

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
20% increase to the optimal range of small lasers
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 2 M (+1), 3 L, 3 turrets (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+9), 230 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 220(-22)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-5) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
10% increase to light missile and rocket flight time
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M , 2 L (+1), 3 launchers (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+11), 270 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 210(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5/ 10 (+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+263.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+5m3 increase to drone bay size
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 20 PWG, 240 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 230(-59)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 25(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 350 (+30)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+20% increase to projectile weapon falloff
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+1), 2 L , 3 turret (+1)
Fittings: 30 PWG (+10), 240 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 200(-74)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-1) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+80)

It's possible a tracking bonus for the Probe would be more useful, as it'd be more likely to use artillery for kiting. Also, my PG numbers may not be entirely enough for some of the weapon fits, but they're a closer indication of what'd be required.



CCP Fozzie, This seems a much better idea. It would also teach new players how to kite using their racial weapons instead of the drones fit all solution. The ships also aren't mega overpowered for pvp but would still have a role as scout/prober who can take part in the combat.

Please considered this guys suggestion.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#117 - 2012-08-15 08:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Galphii wrote:
Here's some changes I thought would be more useful; take note of the variations to racial weapons, and the role bonus.

Magnate:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
20% increase to the optimal range of small lasers
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 2 M (+1), 3 L, 3 turrets (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+9), 230 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(+90) / 350(-36) / 220(-22)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 325 (+168.75)/ 180s (+62.8s)/ 1.8056 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 350 (+54) / 3.8 (-0.32) / 1072000 / 3.81s (-0.32s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-5) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 445 / 4
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 39 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 400 (+243.75)


Heron:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
10% increase to light missile and rocket flight time
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M , 2 L (+1), 3 launchers (+1)
Fittings: 31 PWG (+11), 270 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+126) / 200(-58) / 210(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (+88.75)/ 135s (+17.8s)/ 1.814 (+0.48)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 (+20) / 3.57 (+0.04) / 1150000 / 3.84s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5/ 10 (+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37.5km / 430 / 4
Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+263.75)


Imicus:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+5m3 increase to drone bay size
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+2), 3 L (+1), 1 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 20 PWG, 240 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 275(+50) / 325(-19) / 230(-59)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 270 (+113.75)/ 135s (+32.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 (+52) / 4.15 (-0.04) / 997000 / 3.87s (+0.04s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+5) / 25(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km / 450 / 4
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-4)
Cargo capacity: 350 (+30)


Probe:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% increase to scan strength of probes
+20% increase to projectile weapon falloff
Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Codebreaker, Analyzer and Salvager cycle time
Slot layout: 4 H (+2), 3 M (+1), 2 L , 3 turret (+1)
Fittings: 30 PWG (+10), 240 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(+105) / 300(+26) / 200(-74)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (+78.75)/ 130s (+12.8s)/ 1.8 (+0.47)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 (+26) / 3.58 / 1123000 / 3.76s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5(-1) / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 465 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Ladar
Signature radius: 38 (-3)
Cargo capacity: 420 (+80)

It's possible a tracking bonus for the Probe would be more useful, as it'd be more likely to use artillery for kiting. Also, my PG numbers may not be entirely enough for some of the weapon fits, but they're a closer indication of what'd be required.



CCP Fozzie, This seems a much better idea. It would also teach new players how to kite using their racial weapons instead of the drones fit all solution. The ships also aren't mega overpowered for pvp but would still have a role as scout/prober who can take part in the combat.

Please considered this guys suggestion.


Eeeh, it seems to me like combat bonuses on these ships are out of place. Just like having combat-centric exploration sites is out of place. I'd rather see some exploration changes than combat-oriented exploration ships. All you need, PvP wise, for these ships to be viable in a gang is a cloak and combat probes, which is already taken care of.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-08-15 09:47:52 UTC
The combat bonuses Galphi has suggested are purely range orientated though.

They only offer a small amount of DPS but allow you to project that DPS. It does however give the hulls some flexibility and doesn't just fully shoehorn them into "This is a mini profesion ship and nothing else"
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#119 - 2012-08-15 10:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
Spugg Galdon wrote:
The combat bonuses Galphi has suggested are purely range orientated though.

They only offer a small amount of DPS but allow you to project that DPS. It does however give the hulls some flexibility and doesn't just fully shoehorn them into "This is a mini profesion ship and nothing else"


Yeah, it's the idea that there even are "mini" professions that I guess I'm uncomfortable with. Hacking/Archaeology are currently kind of a joke. It's just something you have to train to open a can in what is otherwise basically just another combat site. That's why trying to focus a ship on the concept just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Ideally, there would be a revamp of the concept. Sites/exploration would be its own thing, with a dedicated "science vessel" type of ship that could actually make use of the things it finds without having to go back to a station/POS to reship into something else completely.

For now, I guess making these into highsec-only exploration ships (and PvP scouts) is all that really makes sense until something like that can happen. Still, combat bonuses just don't fit. As long as they can run highsec radars/mags, and use a cloak/combat probes for PvP scouting that's about as good as it can get until a theoretical exploration revamp.

Currently, any which way you slice it, even with combat bonuses, you're still going to have to reship to run exploration sites outside of highsec, and putting combat bonuses on them doesn't help for PvP either since they'd be obsoleted by combat ships anyway, so ... for the time being they should probably just stick to highsec exploration and PvP scouting. Kinda sucks, but that's the way it goes I guess.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2012-08-15 12:30:00 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
The combat bonuses Galphi has suggested are purely range orientated though.

They only offer a small amount of DPS but allow you to project that DPS. It does however give the hulls some flexibility and doesn't just fully shoehorn them into "This is a mini profesion ship and nothing else"


Yeah, it's the idea that there even are "mini" professions that I guess I'm uncomfortable with. Hacking/Archaeology are currently kind of a joke. It's just something you have to train to open a can in what is otherwise basically just another combat site. That's why trying to focus a ship on the concept just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Ideally, there would be a revamp of the concept. Sites/exploration would be its own thing, with a dedicated "science vessel" type of ship that could actually make use of the things it finds without having to go back to a station/POS to reship into something else completely.

For now, I guess making these into highsec-only exploration ships (and PvP scouts) is all that really makes sense until something like that can happen. Still, combat bonuses just don't fit. As long as they can run highsec radars/mags, and use a cloak/combat probes for PvP scouting that's about as good as it can get until a theoretical exploration revamp.

Currently, any which way you slice it, even with combat bonuses, you're still going to have to reship to run exploration sites outside of highsec, and putting combat bonuses on them doesn't help for PvP either since they'd be obsoleted by combat ships anyway, so ... for the time being they should probably just stick to highsec exploration and PvP scouting. Kinda sucks, but that's the way it goes I guess.

Yeah fozzie said these frigates would be just for highsec, and my suggested changes were to prevent them being cookie cutter drone ships across all races mainly (they're not meant to compete with true combat ships, but to stay at range until its safe to move in). Your point on mini-profession sites is spot-on though, they are just combat sites with a different tool and skill required to get the loot. Developing them into something a bit more unique is a worthy future project for ccp Smile

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.