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[Winter] Exploration Frigate Rebalance

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Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#81 - 2012-08-14 15:49:44 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Yep, I'm starting to see a really ugly trend here. First, among the Electronic Warfare frigates, Gallente are the only race that don't get a "real one" with two EWAR bonuses, we only get one. And now this.


Good thing the game makes it so you're not tied into flying one race.

PIZZA CEO
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#82 - 2012-08-14 15:58:02 UTC
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Yep, I'm starting to see a really ugly trend here. First, among the Electronic Warfare frigates, Gallente are the only race that don't get a "real one" with two EWAR bonuses, we only get one. And now this.


Good thing the game makes it so you're not tied into flying one race.


BUT I AM AN HONORABLE GALLENTE ROLEPLAYER
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#83 - 2012-08-14 16:06:13 UTC
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Yep, I'm starting to see a really ugly trend here. First, among the Electronic Warfare frigates, Gallente are the only race that don't get a "real one" with two EWAR bonuses, we only get one. And now this.


Good thing the game makes it so you're not tied into flying one race.


Why produce a useless ship that forces new players to train something else so early in their careers?
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#84 - 2012-08-14 16:11:42 UTC
My question still is, "What's the use of these things outside of highsec exploration?" It doesn't scout for PvP as well as a cov ops, and it's useless at pretty much everything else. Seems like you'll hop into it to learn how to probe, and then hop out of it forever once you get a covops ... unless highsec exploration is your passion in EVE.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-08-14 17:04:39 UTC
Mechael wrote:
My question still is, "What's the use of these things outside of highsec exploration?" It doesn't scout for PvP as well as a cov ops, and it's useless at pretty much everything else. Seems like you'll hop into it to learn how to probe, and then hop out of it forever once you get a covops ... unless highsec exploration is your passion in EVE.


What's the use of a mining barge outside of mining?

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#86 - 2012-08-14 17:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
Sarik Olecar wrote:
Mechael wrote:
My question still is, "What's the use of these things outside of highsec exploration?" It doesn't scout for PvP as well as a cov ops, and it's useless at pretty much everything else. Seems like you'll hop into it to learn how to probe, and then hop out of it forever once you get a covops ... unless highsec exploration is your passion in EVE.


What's the use of a mining barge outside of mining?


Thanks to the new changes, mining barges are viable in any security space. Exploration ships can't run exploration sites outside of highsec.

EDIT: I should note that yeah, mining barges do have a lot of trouble with nullsec belt rats. But unlike exploration ships, they can still get the job done in nullsec if they avoid the rats. Hell, the Skiff can even tank the rats, it just can't kill the battleships very well (if at all.)

EDIT 2: What I'm really trying to say here is that in order to actually make hacking and archaeology meaningful enough to devote a ship class to them, the difficulty in hacking and archaeology should be found in the actual hacking/archaeology part ... not the combat. It'd require some pretty drastic changes that are likely beyond the scope of this rebalance, but CCP Fozzie saying that they'd eventually look into getting a real science vessel gives me a little hope. Until such a time, these ships will be a little pointless outside of highsec, still more-or-less obscure if not quite obsolete, and that's a shame.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#87 - 2012-08-14 17:32:05 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I think you are underestimating the importance of that third high slot. Ask yourself what advantage does not having it give and why wouldnt a new player just train for one of the other races?


You're focusing so heavily on what that one high slot disallows (a cloak) that you aren't seeing that the Imicus is literally better than the other ships for most purposes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#88 - 2012-08-14 17:38:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I think you are underestimating the importance of that third high slot. Ask yourself what advantage does not having it give and why wouldnt a new player just train for one of the other races?


You're focusing so heavily on what that one high slot disallows (a cloak) that you aren't seeing that the Imicus is literally better than the other ships for most purposes.

-Liang


Better how? One drone makes it a slightly better combat ship but that is it. For a dedicated exploration ship it will be subpar compared to the rest.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#89 - 2012-08-14 17:54:37 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I think you are underestimating the importance of that third high slot. Ask yourself what advantage does not having it give and why wouldnt a new player just train for one of the other races?


You're focusing so heavily on what that one high slot disallows (a cloak) that you aren't seeing that the Imicus is literally better than the other ships for most purposes.

-Liang


Better how? One drone makes it a slightly better combat ship but that is it. For a dedicated exploration ship it will be subpar compared to the rest.


So let me get this straight. It...
- Has better DPS
- Has a better tank
- Has an easier time fitting exploration modules without sacrificing tank
- Is able to fit all the requisite modules
- Basically comes out +1 slot against everyone else about 3/4s of the time

What the hell are you complaining about?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#90 - 2012-08-14 19:28:52 UTC
Like with the other T1 frigate balancing so far, this looks like a splendid job.

also interested in the idea of the T2 science ships.

+1 from me

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-08-14 19:33:24 UTC
Basically as Liang suggests I would not be too fast to change the slot layout.

The Imicus is a stronger ship. Risk reward ratio I guess, I would forgoe the cloak for this ships capabilities.

Still a medium/ small sized salvage drone could solve this problem.

Not incredibly inspired by the role bonus. Even 100% may be better and including salvagers would be nice it will never replace a noctis.

Still I am not sure how the new stats will work out in regards to running local tanks even when kiting. A cap reduction bonus for local tanks may help new players manage exploration sites better without making them overpowered for PVP.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#92 - 2012-08-14 19:41:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

What the hell are you complaining about?


It can't fit all the modules needed in lowsec exploration, making it the worst choice.

Before the buff it was superior in combat abilities because of drones, now the rest get the same advantages but can fit all the modules.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#93 - 2012-08-14 19:42:37 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
cap reduction bonus for local tanks may help new players manage exploration sites better without making them overpowered for PVP.


DCUII+SARII is plenty enough for beginner sites, and there is no need to permarun it.

.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#94 - 2012-08-14 19:47:13 UTC
Roime wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

What the hell are you complaining about?


It can't fit all the modules needed in lowsec exploration, making it the worst choice.

Before the buff it was superior in combat abilities because of drones, now the rest get the same advantages but can fit all the modules.


I contend that the ship is meant for high sec exploration and that a cloak is not mandatory for low sec exploration. This means that the Imicus is in fact able to fit all the required modules for low sec exploration and the other ships are simply down a drone and slot - and therefore simply worse than the Imicus.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2012-08-14 20:20:09 UTC
No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems. This means that the Imicus must do without a salvager, a module which would benefit new players in their ISK-gathering ventures.

It doesn't need four mid slots, it needs a third high. Just like the Helios. The other ships are not down a slot, they all have the same amount. Just better slot layouts, allowing them to fit all modules needed for running profession sites.

.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#96 - 2012-08-14 20:22:19 UTC
Roime wrote:
No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems. This means that the Imicus must do without a salvager, a module which would benefit new players in their ISK-gathering ventures.

It doesn't need four mid slots, it needs a third high. Just like the Helios. The other ships are not down a slot, they all have the same amount. Just better slot layouts, allowing them to fit all modules needed for running profession sites.


Again, I'd argue that the cloak is not required in low sec and is most certainly not required in high sec. All you're doing is arguing in favor of homogeneity and nerfing the Imicus.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#97 - 2012-08-14 21:21:14 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roime wrote:
No ship in this game should be meant for hisec only, what kind of idea that even is?

The cloak certainly is the module that is fitted on all probing ships used outside the starter systems. This means that the Imicus must do without a salvager, a module which would benefit new players in their ISK-gathering ventures.

It doesn't need four mid slots, it needs a third high. Just like the Helios. The other ships are not down a slot, they all have the same amount. Just better slot layouts, allowing them to fit all modules needed for running profession sites.


Again, I'd argue that the cloak is not required in low sec and is most certainly not required in high sec. All you're doing is arguing in favor of homogeneity and nerfing the Imicus.

-Liang


Nerfing the Imicus for PVP. The kicker here is that this ship isn't designed for PVP.

What I am up in arms about (I'm not really ;-) is that if this trend is set then the Helios will be gimped because of similar reasoning. The first thing you do after you train for a Helios is training for another races Cover Ops because you realize how much it sucks.

If they actually come through with light salvager drones then I would be fine with the loss of a high slot.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#98 - 2012-08-14 21:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
I'm running a potential set of changes past the CSM for a round of feedback now, once I take their responses into account I'll likely post at least part of them here tomorrow.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Sun Win
#99 - 2012-08-14 21:43:15 UTC
Mechael wrote:
My question still is, "What's the use of these things outside of highsec exploration?" It doesn't scout for PvP as well as a cov ops, and it's useless at pretty much everything else. Seems like you'll hop into it to learn how to probe, and then hop out of it forever once you get a covops ... unless highsec exploration is your passion in EVE.


Recently rolled an alt to try out high sec exploration. Let me tell you about the status quo

Leaving aside combat sites, there are 4 modules needed: Salvager, probe launcher, code breaker, analyser. Plus you want some small DPS, a tank and probably a prop mod. None of the current ships allow this so you are docking up constantly to switch out between Mag and Radar fits.

It's so bad that I put together a lolfit Kestrel which was unsuitable in every way except for slot layout.

If these ships do nothing more than make the first month of exploration more bearable, they'll be a huge improvement.

Meanwhile, I am holding out hope for a Servant Sisters of Eve faction frig and cruiser along with a faction mid slot mod that combines hacking and analysing (or some kind of gameplay distinction between the two activities that justifies two mid slots). Give it a skill if need be, with the hacker/archaeologist as prerequisites.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#100 - 2012-08-14 21:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Marcel Devereux wrote:

Nerfing the Imicus for PVP. The kicker here is that this ship isn't designed for PVP.

What I am up in arms about (I'm not really ;-) is that if this trend is set then the Helios will be gimped because of similar reasoning. The first thing you do after you train for a Helios is training for another races Cover Ops because you realize how much it sucks.

If they actually come through with light salvager drones then I would be fine with the loss of a high slot.


The Helios is the best covops and the only reason I ever trained another was because it looks so ******* ugly since they nerfed it's face.

-Liang

Ed: I should say that I've got perhaps 100 kills in a Helios. It's hard to know because I didn't post mails back then. :P

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.