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Amarr Crusade conquers Minmatar space ! Billions flee onslaught ! Second Day of Darkness !

Author
Jev North
Doomheim
#81 - 2012-08-17 17:55:14 UTC
I've spent quite a few months deployed to Derelik, while I was still with PRETA. Some of the local sme-.. sorry, local colour may have rubbed off.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#82 - 2012-08-17 18:54:34 UTC
Kirill Cantor wrote:
I agree entirely. I understand why a people would seek more power. I simply dont like that they want you to agree with them

Having someone agree with me is a form of power. To acknowledge that I'm right demands that they share my view of the world.

It seems to me that forcing someone to do what you demand pales in power to making them believe what you believe. Who has more power over you? The person who controls your body, or the person who controls your heart and mind?

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2012-08-17 19:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Using a "recalcitrant slave" metaphor to describe the Amarr Empire's continued fondness for slavery.... Lovely.

Mr. Amith, aside from Derelik, she's also former Angel Cartel and current Serpentis. Or would that be Guardian Angel?

Odd ... I've never thought to ask.

Slavery's no stranger to Ms. North, in any case (or to me; I'm also ex-Cartel). Correct, Ms. North?

One thing I'd add as a reason why people tend to growl more fiercely at the Amarr than at the other slave-taking powers of the cluster is the racial component to Amarrian slavery. The Angels make no distinction between races when it comes to slaves (excepting, maybe, working out what the best market would be-- you don't try to sell a captured Amarrian holder back to the Amarr, unless it's for a ransom).

The Amarr ... well ... if I remember right, the True Amarr generally believe they were chosen by their god to unite humankind. Mr. Amith might not believe that this makes his race "superior," but it's not unusual for Amarr to read more into it than he does. Amarrian slavery may not actually be race-based, exactly, but (1) that's the usual effect, (2) plenty of True Amarr do indeed carry on about racial superiority, and (3) it's probably going to be a long time before we see a Ni-Kunni emperor.

An enemy who'll cheerfully sell you off to the highest bidder if you fall into their hands seems to come off less ... personal ... to most people than an enemy that actively wants to put them, along with their entire family tree, in chains.
Mardon Hashur
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-08-17 21:25:08 UTC
What your saying might hold some truth Ms.Jenneth but those holders who pick slaves based only in there heritage are doing wrong in my opinion. The scriptures call for people to be enslaved so that they can learn about God and become part of the Holy Armarr Empire as a citizen. This dose not focus on race or culture at all but the idea of slavery as a means to enlighten a group of people.

Sincerly Mardon Hashur

Jev North
Doomheim
#85 - 2012-08-17 23:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jev North
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Mr. Amith, aside from Derelik, she's also former Angel Cartel and current Serpentis. Or would that be Guardian Angel?

Odd ... I've never thought to ask.

We've not interacted much, and the answer probably wasn't very relevant before. For the sake of cutting through a lot of needless exposition about the peculiar nature of ties and loyalties in these parts of the cluster, let's just say I'm fairly firmly in the Snake camp these days.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Slavery's no stranger to Ms. North, in any case (or to me; I'm also ex-Cartel). Correct, Ms. North?

As you say. Slaving isn't exactly among Naraka's core or even peripheral activities - but it is one of the main lines of business of its declared faction, and a fact of daily life in Curse.

By local colour rubbing off I wasn't really referring to the habits and practices of Holders, though. More the language and metaphors in use. Whatever else you might think of the Amarr religion and scripture, it has some very catchy expressions.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2012-08-17 23:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mardon Hashur wrote:
What your saying might hold some truth Ms.Jenneth but those holders who pick slaves based only in there heritage are doing wrong in my opinion. The scriptures call for people to be enslaved so that they can learn about God and become part of the Holy Armarr Empire as a citizen. This dose not focus on race or culture at all but the idea of slavery as a means to enlighten a group of people.


Oh, of course. The practice doesn't seem to be inherently racialized, but:

* The command to unite humanity under one rule is given, at least initially, to one people, the Amarr. This tends to racialize its pursuit of compliance with that command.

* The practice of enslavement has frequently been applied to individuals or families within the Empire, but is practiced on the grandest scale when conquering a whole neighboring civilization. Individual civilizations in New Eden tend to have their own unique ethnicities. This tends to racialize the practice.

* The advanced-but-feudal nature of Amarrian governance results in mastery passing largely through lines of descent. These lines tend to find their roots in the True Amarrian ethnicity; even the Khanid, though apparently close friends to the True Amarr, were not ultimately allowed to govern their own. Rather, the True Amarrian family given the role of governing Khanid territory chose to honor the Khanid people by taking on the Khanid name. This tendency of the True Amarr to rule and others to follow tends to racialize their relationship.

* Long gaps between conquests, amounting, I gather, to multiple hundreds of years, result in racialized "shifts" of slaves. It's now relatively hard to find an enslaved Udorian; as I understand it, they've passed their spiritual apprenticeship and been fully integrated into Amarrian society long-since. The Ni-Kunni are now largely free citizens, but many of them are still enslaved. Apparently, the largest-scale emancipation of Matari (other than by revolt) has occurred only in the last few years. How likely a given person is to be a slave can therefore be broken down pretty easily along racial lines. One third of ethnic Matari presently living remain enslaved in the Amarr Empire-- well, probably a little less than that, with the Empress's decree.

* Presumably, had Vak'Atioth gone a bit differently, virtually all ethnic Jove would now be slaves. If you met a Jove on the street in the Empire, you'd be well justified in assuming you were looking at a slave based upon race alone.

All of this occurs independent of any clear-cut racial supremacist sentiment or racial animosity. Add it all together, and you get racial divisions and distinctions all over the place, even if you don't want them. It doesn't matter what you intended to write if the result is a sign reading, "THIS HOLY EMPIRE BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE CHOSEN OF GOD, THE SUPREME TRUE AMARRIAN RACE," in letters a thousand meters high.
Mardon Hashur
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-08-18 01:15:34 UTC
Ms.Jenneth you present a valid point the which are not intended by the reformation process by happen anyway. I can say that things such as the situations you have presented sadden my to some degree. As far as the racial lines and the amount of the people in of that group who are still undergoing the reformation process is because of the factor of time in these things and the opinions of priest and the individual holders anon when a slave line is ready to assume the mantle of a true citizen of the Holy Empire. As you mentioned that some Ni-Kunni are still enslaved is because of the reason that I stated above. Even if the leaders of my people (the Khanid) could still be considered true Amarr, they are now ethnically the same because of marriage with other Khanid families so that the ties between lord and subject are strengthened and are now to the point that the lord and subject could be both called Kahanid and not different cultures.

Sincerly Mardon Hashur

Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-08-18 01:15:55 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

One thing I'd add as a reason why people tend to growl more fiercely at the Amarr than at the other slave-taking powers of the cluster is the racial component to Amarrian slavery. The Angels make no distinction between races when it comes to slaves (excepting, maybe, working out what the best market would be-- you don't try to sell a captured Amarrian holder back to the Amarr, unless it's for a ransom).

The Amarr ... well ... if I remember right, the True Amarr generally believe they were chosen by their god to unite humankind. Mr. Amith might not believe that this makes his race "superior," but it's not unusual for Amarr to read more into it than he does. Amarrian slavery may not actually be race-based, exactly, but (1) that's the usual effect, (2) plenty of True Amarr do indeed carry on about racial superiority, and (3) it's probably going to be a long time before we see a Ni-Kunni emperor.


There is no racial component to slavery as it is practiced in the Empire, that is a common misconception. There are True Amarr in slavery just as there are Khanid, Ni-Kunni, Udorians and Ealur. The greatest number of slaves are indeed of Matari decent but that is not a racial curve it is simply that they are more multiple in number than any other race we've encountered (indeed, I do believe they have the largest number of individuals in the cluster).

As to your first point: An Amarr who thinks he's superior by nature is reading incorrectly into the Scriptures and is therefore conceited and arrogant, just as any other individual of any other race doing so would be. The difficulty is that this apparently happens more often from Amarr which has less to do with our faith or the practice of slavery and more to do with improper instruction during upbringing.

As to your second point: See point one.

As to your third point: It will be a long time indeed, many Ni-Kunni have not attempted to elevate themselves to such a position (that is not necessarily to their fault). However, "taking a long time" and "never happening" are extremely different things.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-08-18 01:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Azdan Amith
Aria Jenneth wrote:
* The command to unite humanity under one rule is given, at least initially, to one people, the Amarr. This tends to racialize its pursuit of compliance with that command.


It was given because the Amarr were the first to be found living righteously before God, not because we are Amarr (by race).

Aria Jenneth wrote:
* The practice of enslavement has frequently been applied to individuals or families within the Empire, but is practiced on the grandest scale when conquering a whole neighboring civilization. Individual civilizations in New Eden tend to have their own unique ethnicities. This tends to racialize the practice.


This point makes little sense. When any nation conquers another nation, they subjugate that nation. That is the nature of conquest. The difference is that people take direct offense to the Amarr being more direct about it than subtle. Also, that it happens to diverse ethnicities in a nation rather serves the opposite of making it a racial practice.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
* The advanced-but-feudal nature of Amarrian governance results in mastery passing largely through lines of descent. These lines tend to find their roots in the True Amarrian ethnicity; even the Khanid, though apparently close friends to the True Amarr, were not ultimately allowed to govern their own. Rather, the True Amarrian family given the role of governing Khanid territory chose to honor the Khanid people by taking on the Khanid name. This tendency of the True Amarr to rule and others to follow tends to racialize their relationship.


The Khanid chose to follow, quite readily I might add. They adopted the faith and culture of the Amarr (while maintaining quite a bit of their own culture as well) more readily than any other people we've encountered. The Khanid very easily could have earned their way toward a royal family had they chosen to do so but they did not. If you doubt me, then I urge you to consider the Tash-Murkon royal family which is, in fact, Udorian.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
* Long gaps between conquests, amounting, I gather, to multiple hundreds of years, result in racialized "shifts" of slaves. It's now relatively hard to find an enslaved Udorian; as I understand it, they've passed their spiritual apprenticeship and been fully integrated into Amarrian society long-since. The Ni-Kunni are now largely free citizens, but many of them are still enslaved. Apparently, the largest-scale emancipation of Matari (other than by revolt) has occurred only in the last few years. How likely a given person is to be a slave can therefore be broken down pretty easily along racial lines. One third of ethnic Matari presently living remain enslaved in the Amarr Empire-- well, probably a little less than that, with the Empress's decree.


Actually there are still enslaved Udorians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, True Amarr and Ealur in the Empire. You are also quite incorrect about "many of them are still enslaved" referring to the Ni-Kunni as less than one percent of them remain enslaved and those are criminals, dissidents and other miscreants that would have been enslaved regardless of their ethnicity.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
* Presumably, had Vak'Atioth gone a bit differently, virtually all ethnic Jove would now be slaves. If you met a Jove on the street in the Empire, you'd be well justified in assuming you were looking at a slave based upon race alone.


This, however, is a true assessment.

Your perception of the racial division of the Empire is understandable but ultimately based entirely on an outside perspective. The Empire is not quite so driven by racial motivations as you are asserting. In the sense that we are the ones seeking to bring all into the fold of righteousness and consequently serve primarily as leaders then you could say we are racially divided but beyond that it is an exaggerated viewpoint. When you visit the Empire, you will find a great many wandering the streets, serving in various occupations, holding offices of authority and genuinely carrying on their days; all of them of diverse ethnic backgrounds.

EDIT: Also, you will find the Khanid and Ni-Kunni, as well as many Minmatar faithful and the Ammatar serving the capacity of conquest and Reclaiming, spreading the faith they now claim as their own, not just True Amarr. This further dissolves your assertion of it being a racial practice.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Mardon Hashur
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-08-18 01:31:20 UTC
Mr.Amith

You manged to say what I wanted to but in a way which 1) most likely made more since, and 2) is exactly what I was trying to get across but you did a HIGHLY superior job of it.

I would also like to applaud you at your efforts to make the empire and the word of God more understandable and less intimidating for outsiders.

Sincerly Mardon Hashur

Muck Raker
Gutter Press
#91 - 2012-08-19 07:13:36 UTC
With the occupation continuing into another week, Gutter Press managed to talk to some of the fleeing refugees!

A concerned mother, carrying a small child said this:
"It was terrible! my life-partner and I were on the last ship to lift off from our colony, and he gave up his seat to let another woman on board. He got off, and said 'don't worry, i'll be fine'. I know he's dead, or enslaved. He doesn't even have his heirloom autorifle, he gave that to our child. I'm so upset!"
The child had this to say:
"Daddy make bad men go away, he has a khumack"

Heartbreaking!


Remember: Gutter Press covers the stories that the Scope cannot !

Rumours, Wars, Rumours of Wars, Wars of Rumours!

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#92 - 2012-08-19 07:41:01 UTC
It's 'khumaak' not 'khumack.'

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Muck Raker
Gutter Press
#93 - 2012-08-19 07:47:53 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
It's 'khumaak' not 'khumack.'


I am sure a 4 year old child whose father is missing in action against the forces of oppression can be forgiven for pronouncing something wrongly.

Rumours, Wars, Rumours of Wars, Wars of Rumours!

Mardon Hashur
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2012-08-19 11:47:38 UTC
I can give my sympathy to the people who are caught up in the fighting. However, I can only give it to the civilians and not the ones who resist.

Sincerly Mardon Hashur

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#95 - 2012-08-19 14:04:11 UTC
Mardon Hashur wrote:
I can give my sympathy to the people who are caught up in the fighting. However, I can only give it to the civilians and not the ones who resist.


Every son or daughter of Matar resists you and yours every single day of their lives.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#96 - 2012-08-19 19:15:37 UTC
Mardon Hashur wrote:
I can give my sympathy to the people who are caught up in the fighting. However, I can only give it to the civilians and not the ones who resist.



We neither want, nor would we accept your sympathies, slaver.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Bucky O'Hair
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2012-08-20 11:23:21 UTC
It has been said that it is always darkness before the storm. Well, then this “Second day of Darkness” was truly the start of the Matar storm. Kourmonen is back in Matar hands, so is Lamaa. But that was just the beginning of the Matar storm, for we have taken Kamela as well, which has been an Amarrian stronghold.

Yes, dark days indeed, for the Empress and her minions perhaps, but for the Matar people, this time that we find ourselves living in will come to be known as the Days of Reckoning. Woe is the Amarr, for you have a lot to answer for.

We are the Matari, we are coming for our people.

[b]We Are Ushra'Khan!

We are coming for our people.[/b]

Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#98 - 2012-08-20 16:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Azdan Amith
Considering this entire "operation" was a farce, I find it ironic that you would even label this a "second Day of Darkness."

A Day of Reckoning will come, but it is not today and it is not what you perceive it to be. I am saddened by the loss of lives that will result from this ridiculous charade and I pray your Republic can better handle the influx of refugees than it has in the past. At least you can take care of their physical needs to some degree.

My condolences to the families that have been destroyed, lives that have been shattered and the atrocities committed against non-militant Amarr as a result of these activities. My condolences further to those slaves that are stripped from the lives and families they know and love as the Tribal Liberation Force impress their own wills upon them or slay them for choosing not to go with them.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#99 - 2012-08-20 21:11:34 UTC
Quote:
My condolences to the families that have been destroyed, lives that have been shattered and the atrocities committed against non-militant Amarr as a result of these activities.


It must be marvelous to possess knowledge unbounded by fact or reality.

Or do you have a credible source for these alleged atrocities?
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#100 - 2012-08-20 23:25:01 UTC
I too would like to know of these "atrocities". As one who fought in numerous battles to liberate the systems surrounding Taff I saw no such activities. As a commissioned officer in the TLF I can state that there are no official, systematic acts of violence being committed against Amarrian (or Amarrian sympathizing) civilians. No imperials are being rounded up and herded like cattle into re-education centers, no glaive collars, no vitoc, and no shock whips are used. That is the hallmark of the "reclaimers" of the 24 IC, not the TLF.

If Pilot Amith has hard proof of war crimes or genocide then share it with the Scope by all means so it can be investigated and the details made available for the entire cluster to see. Otherwise, please stop with the vile propaganda and personal invective.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.