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The new Mackinkaw, new king miner, better than a hauler, all in one, afk mining machine.
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Irya Boone
The Scope
#21 - 2012-08-12 12:00:33 UTC
afk miners aren't easy to kill ?? so where the problem ??

and thx CCp for that , because i was tired of hauling my ores every 10 minutes ...

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2012-08-12 12:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Suddenly Boom wrote:
Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use.
Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for.

The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better.

Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly.

As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4M… or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression.
Lilliana Stelles
#23 - 2012-08-12 12:15:27 UTC
This rebalancing really makes me wonder what they're going to do with industrials.

There's certainly no need to bring them on mining ops anymore.

Not a forum alt. 
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2012-08-12 12:18:22 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
This rebalancing really makes me wonder what they're going to do with industrials.

There's certainly no need to bring them on mining ops anymore.
Why would they do anything to them? It's not like acting as belt shuttles is their only purpose (and it's not like they've suddenly become useless in that role either).

I suppose that, once tiercide rolls around to adjust them, they'll lose all that pointless CPU power, but beyond that…
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-08-12 12:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
Tippia wrote:
Suddenly Boom wrote:
Unless you're using that industrial ship to haul ore from the belt, which is more its primary use.
Its primary use is to haul stuff all over the place. It does that far better than the Mack can ever wish for.

The one minor use-case of hauling ore from a belt to a station is still there for group mining efforts for much the same reason: because an industrial can be made to haul more and can be far more flexible in terms of what it carries (eg. all those mining crystals that Hulk users have been whinging about). All the Mack does is allow you to stay in the belt for longer before returning to station, and in that scenario, no hauler is involved to begin with so nothing has been replaced. If you intend never to leave the belt to begin with, then you still need that indy since it does the job far better.

Claiming that the every-day haulers is losing its role as an every-day hauler to a ship that cannot actually haul stuff is downright silly.

As a point of comparison, a Mack can bring just over 1M units of trit to the market; a mega-haul Itty V can bring nearly 4M… or 86M units if you employ a bit of compression.


For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.

The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2012-08-12 12:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling.
…for which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.

And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.

Quote:
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does.
Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-08-12 13:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling.
…for which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.

And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.

Quote:
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does.
Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.


Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.

The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.

The rapidly crashing ice market is a symptom of the imbalance, we'll see just how bad it goes. This is what happens when you give a mining ship a hauler sized ore hold. Every solo miner is now as efficient as a miner+hauler, and all for no effort too!
Tikera Tissant
#28 - 2012-08-12 13:12:49 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:


For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling. There's no need to use a hauler anymore, infact even if you're mining in a team, you're better of mining with all mackinkaws, a hauler is not going to increase your yield, infact it will decrease, you're better off with all mackinkaws and no hauler. It's far easier, and you get more ore.

The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does. If you really want a dedicated hauler anyway, just use another Mackinkaw, it can mine between hauling sessions. If you're going to do that though you may aswell just use each miner as its own hauler anyway. God, this is so dumb.


You are dead wrong.

When mining in a team you are mining in hulks. They dump their load to the orca, and the orca either takes the ore to the station, or you are using another orca to transfer the ore to the station.

There is absolutely no reason to use mackinaws in a team ops. Even when not tanked they will not do as much m3/hour as a tanked hulk with a booster orca. No need to go and dump your load means lots more cycles dedicated to mining than flying to station, which makes the ops a hell of alot more efficient. Using macks in a team is very in-efficient.

For a solo miner, its retriever->mackinaw.
For a group miner its retriever->hulk.
For a null miner its mainly a skiff.
Rengerel en Distel
#29 - 2012-08-12 13:15:19 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
For belt hauling, the mackinkaw beats primary haulers at their own role. Forget the rest, i'm talking about belt hauling.
…for which a top-end industrial is still a better choice since it does it faster and in larger volume. In teams in particular, it allows you to switch from Macks to Hulk+Orca combos and leave everyone else in the belt, nicely boosted up.

And even if this rather secondary use for industrials was ever so slightly intruded on by the Mack, then so what? It just means the Mack is doing its job as a solo miner and it doesn't make any difference for the value of industrials at large.

Quote:
The imbalance here is plain as day, no mining ship should be able to haul ore as well as or better than an actual dedicated hauler does.
Good news: they don't. There is no imbalance.


Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.

The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.

The rapidly crashing ice market is a symptom of the imbalance, we'll see just how bad it goes. This is what happens when you give a mining ship a hauler sized ore hold. Every solo miner is now as efficient as a miner+hauler, and all for no effort too!


And once ice crashes, people will have to go back to ore to make any isk. Your "afk isk printing machine" then turns into the same boring mining operation of switching rocks every couple of minutes as it always was.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
LilRemmy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-08-12 13:17:41 UTC
Mining too easy now? I don't get this whine.
Tikera Tissant
#31 - 2012-08-12 13:18:56 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.


Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules?
And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.

2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.
Frying Doom
#32 - 2012-08-12 13:22:31 UTC
Tikera Tissant wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.


Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules?
And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.

2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.

You forgot the shield reps you have on the Orca as well.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-08-12 13:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
Tikera Tissant wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.


Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules?
And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.

2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.


It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.

The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.

CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.
Frying Doom
#34 - 2012-08-12 13:39:06 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Tikera Tissant wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.


Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules?
And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.

2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.


It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.

The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.

CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.

Why talk about Ice mining the prices are starting to flat line. You make a lot more money mining rocks because its not an afk activity. As to the market, have you considered that as it's a supply an demand market that atm a lot of solo miners are changing ships so the market cost has gone up because of demand?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-08-12 13:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite.

Quote:
The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.
…except that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can — another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base.

So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of them… and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.

The Mack is not a good fleet hauler. It sacrifices yield for something you don't need — space. It is also not a particularly good transport since it's slower, costlier, completely lacking in versatility (not to mention longer to train for).
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-08-12 13:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
Frying Doom wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Tikera Tissant wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:

Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.


Maybe you mean 55% extra yield with orca pilot skills and gank modules?
And that is for every ship in the fleet. And you are for some reason keep forgetting the cycle losses from having to go back to the station.

2 hulks+orca = 4 machinaws give or take.


It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.

The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.

CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.

Why talk about Ice mining the prices are starting to flat line. You make a lot more money mining rocks because its not an afk activity. As to the market, have you considered that as it's a supply an demand market that atm a lot of solo miners are changing ships so the market cost has gone up because of demand?


Yes, when the top barge loses its spot as the best mining barge as is replaced by another, it is expected that everyone will dump their hulks and switch to macks instead. Macks are in high demand and hulks are being dumped like an annoying girlfriend. Supply and demand, most people are switching to the new best barge.
Tikera Tissant
#37 - 2012-08-12 13:52:10 UTC
Tigress Tionese wrote:


It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.

The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.

CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.


The market also doesn't tell the truth either. The prices has also been changed because of manufacturing cost has also changed, plus its semi artificially being manipulated, as the demand of mackinaws has increased slightly, but not majorly. And as some solo miners switch to mackinaws, the manipulators are getting the hulks for cheaper. Same as the people who stole the retrievers from the market and are now selling them for a huge profit.

Also you said earlier "all mackinaws", not macks + orca.
And people who mined ice already had mackinaws before for ice mining. That also didn't change at all.
And afk mining ore? Seriously? go afk for 30 minutes and you come back after your ship sat for 15 minutes doing nothing because the ore you mined went empty. Mining ore afk is a complete waste of time.

And no, I don't agree with you that the majority moved to mackinaws. The majority will still be using what they used before the change, the hulk. New people might move to mackinaws, but most team miners will still go for hulks.
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-08-12 13:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigress Tionese
Tippia wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:
Hulks + Orca? There's a joke, 9% yield is not worth the extra hastle you get from being in a weaker ship with a much smaller ore hold.
You need to check your bonuses, unless you run the Mack with three MLU/IHUs, in which case it's not noticeably stronger than the Hulk. The size of the Hulk's ore hold is utterly irrelevant since you're not going to use it other than as a transition buffer. For all intents and purposes, it can be considered infinite.

Quote:
The only reason to bring an Orca is for the gang mining boosts, and since it's already there, it may aswell do the job of hauling anyway, not that it's really needed though.
…except that doing so means you lose the boosts for long periods of time, which reduces your yield. So instead you use the Orca as a huge cargo can — another transfer buffer from which the actual haulers pull ore and take back to base.

So no, using the Orca as a belt shuttle is hideously inefficient unless you actually run with two of them… and that's just slow and cumbersome compared to using an actual industrial hauler.


I don't need to check anything, a mack can have near 20k EHP with 3 upgrades, which is enough.

The ore hold size is very relevant, with the hulk you need to do a lot more work, it's far more intensive, with the mack you can have a very laid back, semi afk or even totally afk mining session, you could even go make dinner and eat it, come back and you're still not full on ore, that is an undeniably huge bonus. This applies to ice mining obviously.
Tigress Tionese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-08-12 13:56:39 UTC
Tikera Tissant wrote:
Tigress Tionese wrote:


It's assumed that if you're using an orca to boost the hulks then you would be using an orca to boost the macks. 2 max yield hulks + orca is only 9% more yield than 2 max yield macks + orca.

The biggest difference is macks hold more than 4 times the ore, far less effort is needed and in paticular when mining ice this far outweighs any benefit you gain from the 9% more yield the hulk setup would give. You can literally leave your computer alone for half an hour while you fill up on ore, allowing you put out far longer mining sessions than you could in a hulk.

CCP wanted to do away with there being one best barge, before that was the hulk. All they've achieved is making the mackinkaw the new king barge and entirely crashed the ice market at the same time. The market prices of the hulk and mackinkaw reflect this, their prices have been completely reversed. The new mackinkaw costs the same amount as the old hulk, the new hulk costs the same amount as the old mackinkaw. The market doesn't lie. The majority are mining in Mackinkaws.


The market also doesn't tell the truth either. The prices has also been changed because of manufacturing cost has also changed, plus its semi artificially being manipulated, as the demand of mackinaws has increased slightly, but not majorly. And as some solo miners switch to mackinaws, the manipulators are getting the hulks for cheaper. Same as the people who stole the retrievers from the market and are now selling them for a huge profit.

Also you said earlier "all mackinaws", not macks + orca.
And people who mined ice already had mackinaws before for ice mining. That also didn't change at all.
And afk mining ore? Seriously? go afk for 30 minutes and you come back after your ship sat for 15 minutes doing nothing because the ore you mined went empty. Mining ore afk is a complete waste of time.

And no, I don't agree with you that the majority moved to mackinaws. The majority will still be using what they used before the change, the hulk. New people might move to mackinaws, but most team miners will still go for hulks.


The belt numbers don't lie, most people are using mackinkaws and it's T1 equivalent, retrievers.
Hiyora Akachi
Blood Alcohol Content
T O P S H E L F
#40 - 2012-08-12 14:12:39 UTC
Yes, because they're the solo AFK miners. The corp miners who have access to an Orca are still using the hulks because with the bonuses from the Orca they have a better yield than a Macki.



Oh, also. Posting in a stealth "Why hulk not Miner god" thread.