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The new Mackinkaw, new king miner, better than a hauler, all in one, afk mining machine.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#261 - 2012-08-15 13:13:28 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Stop telling people that.
Sorry. I forgot. Oops

Please disregard my previous post. Revise statement as follows: your active booster does help. In fact, the more the better. Fit all midslots with small a-type boosters.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#262 - 2012-08-15 13:16:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Stop telling people that.
Sorry. I forgot. Oops

Please disregard my previous post. Revise statement as follows: your active booster does help. In fact, the more the better. Fit all midslots with small a-type boosters.


Confirming this actually makes you unkillable.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#263 - 2012-08-15 14:03:43 UTC
The "rebalance" of the mining barges is bad and turned out terribly imbalanced

who would have expected that

oh wait everyone
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#264 - 2012-08-15 14:09:53 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The "rebalance" of the mining barges is bad and turned out terribly imbalanced
What's imbalanced about it?
Zishy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#265 - 2012-08-15 14:12:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The "rebalance" of the mining barges is bad and turned out terribly imbalanced
What's imbalanced about it?



whats imbalanced? (: sure an empire nap will never understand that :p


oh and btw shield boosters are required to tank ratspawns in nullsec. oh wait i remember you are not mining anywhere but empire. disregard that
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2012-08-15 14:27:02 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
bla


You still haven't realized that there is nothing personal in this,
although you still seem to believe you can project this onto me.

No use in talking to a robot who keeps trying to defend himself against an imaginary enemy,
without the needed ability of having a conscious thought and thinking through what's being told.


You're just too blinded by your own hatred.


I hope you die often. o/
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#267 - 2012-08-15 14:48:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Zishy wrote:
whats imbalanced?
So nothing, then, since you can't think of anything either and have to ask.

Quote:
oh and btw shield boosters are required to tank ratspawns in nullsec.
…and that's nice and all, but they're not going to protect you against other players — the topic we're discussing here — and they're completely useless for suicide ganks — the context we're discussing those attacks in. Claiming that it will make any difference whatsoever against a HS catalyst gank (or against any kind of gank outside of HS) is beyond clueless.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#268 - 2012-08-15 14:55:14 UTC
Andski wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Andski wrote:
itt: people think that hisec ganking is supposed to be balanced across all sec bands by the cost of the ships involved


When devs post stuff like "The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off", it sounds like cost IS being used to balance the game. And to a certain degree, they should continue to do so.


tell me exactly how you can require x amount of isk to gank, say, a hulk


So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game?
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#269 - 2012-08-15 15:01:59 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I can honestly say, that investing in a deadspace booster is the best investment you can make with a mining vessel.


Back away from the keyboard, you don't know what you doing.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#270 - 2012-08-15 15:29:11 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game?


you /can't/ use cost to balance the game because nothing is balanced by cost

a Vindicator is not ten times better than a Megathron, despite costing ten times as much; a Hulk does not mine ten times better than a Covetor despite costing ten times as much.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#271 - 2012-08-15 15:32:46 UTC
Andski wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game?


you /can't/ use cost to balance the game because nothing is balanced by cost

a Vindicator is not ten times better than a Megathron, despite costing ten times as much; a Hulk does not mine ten times better than a Covetor despite costing ten times as much.


Before you could gank a mac with one cat. Now you need 2-3. It COSTS more. They have balanced the game so that it costs more to gank. How is this not a cost-balancing effect?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#272 - 2012-08-15 15:34:40 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
So you don't think the recent changes have made it so that it costs more to gank miners? Or you don't think the quote above suggests they are using cost to balance the game?
There's a reason he was basically called an idiot, if not in those exact terms, for making that sloppy statement. They've tried to use cost as a balancing factor once. We've been living with the never-ending problem of Titans ever since…
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#273 - 2012-08-15 15:34:43 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Before you could gank a mac with one cat. Now you need 2-3. It COSTS more. They have balanced the game so that it costs more to gank. How is this not a cost-balancing effect?


Put down the spreadsheet for a second and think "2-3 catalysts rather than one."

The increased ISK cost is irrelevant here - it's increased effort.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#274 - 2012-08-15 15:49:19 UTC
Read it however you want, the quote clearly shows that they are considering cost. "money you paid...compared to...money you lost", "numbers can still be adjusted".

I didn't say they're using cost to fine-tune those numbers, but they clearly have considered costs or he wouldn't have mentioned it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#275 - 2012-08-15 17:56:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Zishy wrote:
you have no ******* clue what you can fit on a ship do you?
Sure I do. For instance, I know how to get a MSE on there, which does you a whole lot more good than an active booster.

Quote:
i have not lost a single hulk or mack yet - why? because i dont mine in ******* empire space.
Then the booster is even more meaningless. They have no clock to fight against and your active tank is insignificant compared to the DPS they can bring, even if they choose to go after your main resists. There's also no unavoidable loss so they can bring whatever they like. How many cycles do you think you'll get off when you're staring down the barrel of 5k DPS?

In short: don't fit an active booster. It does. Not. Help. You.


I suppose you have not mined in low or null sec?

Your buffer tank helps quite little against spawns, the ships die after 2 minutes. The deadspace shield boosters are one of the ways to perma rep those ships while before the escort kills the rats.

If hostiles land on you in low and zero sec, the buffer tank won't help very much anyway, there's not Concord to come within some seconds.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#276 - 2012-08-15 18:08:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Suddenly Boom wrote:
The numbers don't lie, almost all orca mining groups are using macs, even group miners don't want the hulk. See for yourself all the orcas in the belts in these screens and the overwhelming mac dominance even in the presence of many orcas.
You're missing a rather important column in those screen shots. There's nothing to suggest that any of those actually group mine. The numbers don't lie, but all they're showing is that people like the solo playstyle. This is not news. It doesn't contradict that the Hulk is a better mining ship and that it excels in fleets.


Actually Suddenly Boom is right.

The Hulk, despite the purposedly applied annoyances, would have fulfilled its purpose ***IF*** some high sec mechanic would actually made them defendable by the fleet they are meant to always have around.

There are NOBODY, even paid for it (I know, I have been in the miners protection mercs business) who will waste their life sitting close to some stupid Hulks all day long.
There's an host of better and more fun and more paid stuff to do in EvE than that.

Even corpies after 2-3 weeks of that ordeal give up and just park a RR Domi or similar AFK repping the ships and go do something more fun.

So that leaves you with your 2-3 Hulks, you have to bring in YOUR AC Tornado alt to the belt and stare to the screen like an hawk for hours. So fun... almost nobody does it.

Mack comes very much close (any small delay in operation immediately kills the Hulk efficiency and delays over hours long operations happen. Even just moving belt / getting an empty roid kills efficiency.

So yes, Mack >>>>>> Hulk for fleets because it has no hassle at all, can always be used at peak efficiency, can always bring all the needed crystals, can get > 30k EHP before Orca buffs. You can easily reposition MAcks at distant roids with no logistics hassle and all of these advantages immediately and oppressively destroy Hulk viability, even in its own main job.

I have now tried all sorts of Hulk and Mack combos, both ice and belts and missions roids and the outcome is always the same: for the easily lost yield advantage (any mistake does that) you get every possible bad deal from the Hulk => not worth even for fleet. Even for a 3 corps fleet is still not worth it, actually it gets worse.

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Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#277 - 2012-08-15 18:17:47 UTC
Suddenly Boom wrote:


This guy spelled it out right here. With the hulk he has to drop the ore every 104 seconds, with the mack you can mine for a much longer period without worrying about ore overflow, you can have afk breaks. Over a long period a mac user will mine more than a hulk user because they can mine and relax at the same time, resulting in much longer mining sessions.



Solo yes. But its been pretty well presented that the point is to make the mack a better solo miner. The mack will not outmine the hulk when its not solo mining. The skiff will not outmine anything, with the possible exception of a mack over a long period of time if it has a hauler.

I've watched your posts, I'm not sure what you are up in arms about other than "Dem other people are enjoying the game and mining semi-afk" or "My hulk is not as good at solo mining as it once was"


Perhaps you should engage your energy to compel CCP to make mining more entertaining, so people afk less? And spend less of it pointing out the obvious. Because, given the track record, I don't think its going to change back.
Sarton Wells
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2012-08-15 18:21:49 UTC
Since I don't have an easy way to calculate it what's the yield of a 30k EHP mack and that of a full yield hulk?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#279 - 2012-08-15 18:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I suppose you have not mined in low or null sec?
I suppose that, like Zishy, you are not familiar with the word “context”. He offered it up as something that could not be ganked by Catalysts. In highsec, the shield booster is a bad choice because it doesn't help any more (and in fact much less) than an expander would; outside of highsec, it doesn't help at all.

Yes, you would need a booster if you're caught alone, but that's completely irrelevant to the kind of problem he incorrectly claimed it could solve. Either way, it only makes you an easier and more worth-while target and thinking that gankers would “cry” when coming across it is nothing but laughable.

Quote:
The Hulk, despite the purposedly applied annoyances, would have fulfilled its purpose ***IF*** some high sec mechanic would actually made them defendable by the fleet they are meant to always have around.
There are. ECM, logi, counter-ganking, mutual webbing, etc. etc. etc.

Quote:
Actually Suddenly Boom is right.
…except that his screen shots do not particularly support the claim he's making.

Quote:
So yes, Mack >>>>>> Hulk for fleets because it has no hassle at all, can always be used at peak efficiency, can always bring all the needed crystals, can get > 30k EHP before Orca buffs. You can easily reposition MAcks at distant roids with no logistics hassle and all of these advantages immediately and oppressively destroy Hulk viability, even in its own main job.
…and none of those are problematic for a well-sorted fleet to overcome. A fleet is not a goup of people solo-mining together — it's a group where each person fills a slot and does a specific job. Again, that is what Zishy's picture show: people solo-mining together. If you do not intend to use a fleet properly then yes, a Mack will do a better job. This is by design. If you get your act together, then the supposed disadvantages of the Hulk become irrelevant and its advantages destroy all competition in terms of yield.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#280 - 2012-08-15 18:28:11 UTC
A skiff gets close to an No MLU hulk, and seeing how untanked hulks are die when the wind picks up too quick, no one should fly them.

If you're Ice Mining in a fleet, and don't need the Ore Hold, use the Skiff, it can have Two IMU and the Mining rig, pulls more ice then a full tank hulk and has 80K EHP. I believe the cycle time on max skills with no implant is 58.7 seconds.

Hulks no buff was a major nerf to its usefulness. Happy I sold mine @ 300m before the patch. Only paid 120 for them 2 years ago.

If CCP's goal was too make all the barges useful, they need to check again cause only the stupid fly the hulk now. Or those looking for T2 Salvage opportunities and pretty fireworks.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.