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Time to re-balance ores yet?
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Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#161 - 2012-08-13 05:41:30 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
If nobody mines high sec, it becomes rare, valuable... working as intended. You can still mine veldspar in 0.0... and hulkageddon free



Except he can't AFK mine in low/null and thats bull amirite?!

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#162 - 2012-08-13 05:53:04 UTC
Zhade Lezte wrote:

And supply remains an issue even with (nearly) infinite supply as highseccers have to choose whether to go to a new system for more scordite or mine ever so slightly cheaper veldspar, nullseccers have to mine bad high-ends to respawn belts or install new systems for more static belts as well as maintaining a industry index level. End result is that people will focus more on valuable ores including scordite but no one is going to just "resolve the supply issue" by mining scordite exclusively except for maybe highseccers in really deserted systems.


Hi seccers stopped mining scordite because thanks to your alliance's initiative they got farmed enough so that many went to mine grav sites and missions. A common factor of those is the relative lack of scordite. Also, missions provide lots of pyroxeres so nocxium gets digged in far bigger proportions than pyerite.
I mean, you are harvesting what you seeded.


Zhade Lezte wrote:

And even they have to deal with the small inconvenience that is highsec freighting to move all those low-end minerals they harvested in the boonies. This is kinda tangential but I guess it's another reason why your claim that the free market will resolve everything is at a certain point invalid in a game like eve online.


Might sound like a surprise, but RL too have to deal with expensive logistics. The free market optimizes demand vs offer spreads but does not play or fix the game for you. Market solves everything within its domain and factors in everything including outside of its domain (i.e. it factors in risk, added costs etc.). Actually your only saving grace is that the free market is factoring in your hauling costs else you'd get even less for ABC.


Zhade Lezte wrote:

Cool, I guess since we're playing cards I should mention that I spent my first three years in eve online in highsec, wormholes, and NPC 0.0 before joining the alliance I'm now in. So yeah, we're pretty equal in "things we've seen" I guess! I honestly was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on having actually researched the real risk of owning space and paying sov bills, but that was probably a lost cause when you claimed high sec was riskier.


I don't "claim" high sec is riskier. The markets are. Sue or gank them if you can. Twisted


Zhade Lezte wrote:

I was also talking about both sides in that fleet loss, NCdot actually lost a good deal more in that specific fight and are probably going to lose their space and the ability to mine gravimetric belts. So you see, they are the real argument to why 0.0 ores should have more low-ends.


Which I am cool with.


Zhade Lezte wrote:

But please, keep talking about how you are an expert in how nullsec sov-holding alliances are doing and their risks involved in the still rather broken (but hopefully progressively improving) wreck that is the dominion sov systems while insinuating that the issues I raised are contained to my alliance, or even to my bloc. I'll just be sitting here watching as even non-affiliated entities say otherwise (sup Intrepid Crossing!) :allears:


Your alliance does not have "issues". Apparently they have higher costs than competitors. I don't need to proclaim whatever knowledge about sov holding null sec I have, the market is clubbing you and others, while others accept the markets harsh judgement.

Also, unlike other alliances, yours has a direct stake directly into why hi sec minerals rose (and indirectly made ABC tank due to the loose basket composition of most BPOs) and into why Tech rose.

Once again, you - at least partially - have played a role in supply and demand, you are harvesting the results.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#163 - 2012-08-13 06:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Daioh Azu wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
I'm failing to understand why anyone would continue to incur the overheard of importing Trit in compressed form if it were available on the local market.

Demand, even though it's only capital and supercap producers, for lowend minerals vastly outstrips what miners produce.

Buy orders at a station with a good refining yield are a good bit over Jita sell for things like trit etc. What they're producing needs large amounts of lowends. Doubtless the miners would love to mine ever more, but that doesn't work out for various reasons.

And yet I can go to any system with a Minmatar outpost and find belts full of Veldspar and Scordite completely untouched. You can't fill those needs for low ends if you don't even try.

If you won't do what you can to do to put downward pressure on low end prices by mining what is available and at least subsiding some of the nul-sec demand while the ores are actually valuable, then the problem doesn't not lie with balance, or yield rates, or industrial upgrades, or CCP.

People avoid the belts because it's an easy place to get caught by a ganker.

Instead in sov nullsec you cycle grav sites. It isn't as though you don't know that by now. Not only do you have to be probed, the rocks are very large making your job easier.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Atari Snr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2012-08-13 06:28:51 UTC
its not as tho there arnt any hisec ores in null/low sec for you to mine lol!
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#165 - 2012-08-13 06:40:54 UTC
People have been stocking up huge quantities of high-end ores before recent changes. And now we just had a significant change to mining barges. It seems like people are dumping their stocks of high-end ores. It is too early to draw conclusions on future price levels.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#166 - 2012-08-13 07:32:39 UTC
Atari Snr wrote:
its not as tho there arnt any hisec ores in null/low sec for you to mine lol!


A freighter full of Megacyte is still worth more than a freighter full of Pyerite.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2012-08-13 07:42:59 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
No I understand perfectly. You want CCP to change refine yields so your income is boosted with out the need for you to change your behavior. You want to continue to mine as much ABC and Spodumain as you can without it having an adverse effect on your wallet. Please tell me what part of this I don't understand.

Nah, you are still missing it.

First of all, people don't mine spod in null unless they want to flip the belts. Go back to my first post. Miners who mine for income know how to sort by profit and choose the top one. ABC *was* the top, it's not now. That's the whole point of this and that's the thing you seem to be missing.

No, I'm not missing it. I get that Spodumain is only mined to despawn the grav site and spawn a new one. What you refuse to see is that 15% of the Spodumain is Megacyte. The Megacyte content of Arkonor and Bistot is what supports their value. When drone compounds stopped adding Megacyte into the market nul-sec miners did not turn to the very scarce supply of Arkonor and Bistot in their belts to fill the demand, they went to the industrial grav sites with their less scarce Arkonor and Bistot, and over abundant Spodumain.

Zifrian wrote:
Where are ABCM ores? Why are they not on the top of the list? No no, stop right there about your market point. They are only available in nullsec, where the risk is greatest to mine, the hardest and most costly to refine and ship to highsec for the best price. So why are they falling? You can come up with all the excuses you want but the drone poo and T1 drop changes have completely flipped the market around. *Maybe* the new ship changes will affect it further, I personally do not think they will have a great effect. We will see.

Actually AB and M are still at the top on my list, you might want to check your numbers. Crokite is held down because just as the Megacyte content of Spodumain is forcing Megacyte lower, the increaced supply of Zydrine from Arkonor and Bistot are keeping Zydrine prices lower.

By the way, ABCM are not only available in nul-sec but are available in J-space too. Wormhole residents are without the benefit of intel channels and local, I'd dare say their mining is considerably more risky. Since they have no outposts and lose 25% their yield though POS refining on top of POS overhead, I'd say their refining costs are much higher. As a route to bring their minerals to market may not even exist at times, wormhole residents may often miss the best opportunities to bring their minerals to market. Asuming they even worry about that and don't simply mine what the need for their own production.

While the removal of Meta 0 loot drops and drone compounds were anounced in early April, they didn't actually happen until the end of April. If you check your market history you will see that Tritanium and Pyerite values have been on the rise since December. The mineral indices chart in CCP Dr.EyjoG's blog shows the beginning of that trend.

Zifrian wrote:
Anyway, my whole issue is someone shouldn't be able to semi-afk mine in highsec (I did this for YEARS and never got ganked) with a new Mackinaw for veldspar, the lowest skill intensive ore, get perfect refine and have a direct line to afk haul their minerals to market to make more than we do in nullsec.

As I've stated before, and you seem to ignore, if you are not willing to protect the value of what you have made safe, then perhaps you deserve neither! CCP has given you more tools than just the mining laser. Perhaps you should use one. I don't think I need to tell you how effective and AFK cloaker can be at reducing mining output. Other tools can be even more effective.

Zifrian wrote:
Finally, the original ore system is set up by CCP - ABCM in nullsec, skills to refine those ores, use T2 crystals, and even make T2 crystals are FAR FAR FAR more intensive than veldspar and other ores. So yes, if everything else were equal you might have a point - they are not. The problem is, CCP created the system and for years the prices reflected that system. Do you think it was their intent that Veldspar and Lowends were the most profitable ore in the game? I think you would have a really hard time arguing that.

And CCP once had NPC only manufactured goods, with set static prices that acted as price controls. Back then you would never pay more then 3 ISK per unit of Tritanium when you could just buy shuttles at 10,000 ISK and reprocess them back into their Tritanium at 2.96 per unit. I think CCP's intention is for the market, we players, to determine the prices, otherwise they wouldn't have removed those price controls.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2012-08-13 07:52:14 UTC
the problems eve industry has right now are based on pretty much everything but ore balancing
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-08-13 08:25:27 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
People avoid the belts because it's an easy place to get caught by a ganker.

Instead in sov nullsec you cycle grav sites. It isn't as though you don't know that by now. Not only do you have to be probed, the rocks are very large making your job easier.

I have mined in in nul-sec before and since Dominion. A nul-sec miner in a belt, paying attention to intel channels and watching local is at no more risk of ganking than a belt ratter.

A skilled Cov Ops pilot will have your grav site bookmarked before you can even determine what he is flying. If he makes it a corp bookmark and logs off, the bomber wing following an hour later will know exactly where to warp. Care to remind me again exactly how safe that grav site is now?
Dave Stark
#170 - 2012-08-13 08:34:39 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
People avoid the belts because it's an easy place to get caught by a ganker.

Instead in sov nullsec you cycle grav sites. It isn't as though you don't know that by now. Not only do you have to be probed, the rocks are very large making your job easier.

I have mined in in nul-sec before and since Dominion. A nul-sec miner in a belt, paying attention to intel channels and watching local is at no more risk of ganking than a belt ratter.

A skilled Cov Ops pilot will have your grav site bookmarked before you can even determine what he is flying. If he makes it a corp bookmark and logs off, the bomber wing following an hour later will know exactly where to warp. Care to remind me again exactly how safe that grav site is now?


an hour later the grav site will be flipped and moved else where making the bookmark useless.
that's what makes grav sites so safe; they move.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2012-08-13 08:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Daioh Azu
Dave stark wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
People avoid the belts because it's an easy place to get caught by a ganker.

Instead in sov nullsec you cycle grav sites. It isn't as though you don't know that by now. Not only do you have to be probed, the rocks are very large making your job easier.

I have mined in in nul-sec before and since Dominion. A nul-sec miner in a belt, paying attention to intel channels and watching local is at no more risk of ganking than a belt ratter.

A skilled Cov Ops pilot will have your grav site bookmarked before you can even determine what he is flying. If he makes it a corp bookmark and logs off, the bomber wing following an hour later will know exactly where to warp. Care to remind me again exactly how safe that grav site is now?


an hour later the grav site will be flipped and moved else where making the bookmark useless.
that's what makes grav sites so safe; they move.

No it won't. 30 to 45 of these minutes will be spent by miners cowering in station or behind POS shields, afraid that the hostile might come back. One hour is usally just about enough time for the mining ops to resume in earnest.Evil
And if not, we can always try again tomorrow. Sooner or latter, we'll get the timing right.Twisted
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#172 - 2012-08-13 13:36:44 UTC
The only ore that is fundamentally broken is Omber. (aka, LOLmber)

The fact that it takes 500 units to refine rather than 400, along with its bulky size, makes it strictly inferior to Kernite. Even if Isogen prices took off, it would have to go sky high before Omber became more attractive to mine than other ores. Even then, Kernite would be superior.

I moved out of Minmatar space specifically because of Omber. Granted, I'm not chewing on Kernite in my new home, but that is just because isogen prices are fairly low right now.

With the mining changes the imbalance of high sec vs null sec minerals will sort itself out over time.

Also remember that size and logistics is an issue. Low sec minerals are easy to import from null because they are so small (compared to their value). Meanwhile, Trit and Pyerite are both very bulky and difficult to transport.



In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#173 - 2012-08-13 13:45:07 UTC
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
I blame reprocessed loot from hisec missions for this.


Nice joke Lol

But fail.

brb
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2012-08-13 16:39:38 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Atari Snr wrote:
its not as tho there arnt any hisec ores in null/low sec for you to mine lol!


A freighter full of Megacyte is still worth more than a freighter full of Pyerite.

However, a freighter full of Veldspar is worth more than a freighter full of Crokite!

I'm sure someone will necro this in a few months to try to me look like an idiot, but how many chances am I ever gonna get to say it and it actually be true?
highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#175 - 2012-08-13 16:41:57 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Mining barehanded in the dark a mile (1.6 km) below ground in a Chinese mine for granite is also risky, the rewards should be greater.

You need to do better than that to troll my thread.



You need to be better at economics and paying attention to recent happenings in eve

The reason they are higher now is due to a combo of recent game changes and game events. Hulkageddon, Market scams and most importantly, the drone regions nerf.

FC, what do?