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Time to re-balance ores yet?
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#121 - 2012-08-12 23:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

A number of factors caused scarcity in certain minerals.
1 factor (OTEC) caused artificial scarcity in Tech market. Tech is not so scarce, it just used to be seized. That's not a mechanic that CCP should "fix" per se, they have just to make it harder to seize.

Yes just like Dysprosium and Promethium, the old bottlenecks before Tech, were never scarce and their astronomical prices were just the result of artificial scarcity, right?

Roll


Two simple facts:

- Remove the bottleneck, the next close bottleneck becomes the new one. Unless they make a boring to tears game with no scarcity we'll always get a bottleneck and that bottleneck will be speculated and used to make profit.

- R32 and R64 are meant to be rare and be bottlenecks. Economy = competition to resources. Tech just happens to have been implemented particularly bad and thus making it easier to monopolize.

CCP wants to fix the monopoly not the scarcity. Scarcity is good, scarcity is a conflict driver and EvE is a PvP game.


Yes and yes. Dyspro/prom were better to have as bottlenecks than Tech was as it was distributed (unevenly, but that's a good thing) across the galaxy. However, I would argue that OTEC, at best, accelerated a given outcome - that is, a rise to dyspro/prom levels of pricing, followed by CCP hamfistedly nerfing it.

But I digress. We seem to be off the topic of normal minerals.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-08-12 23:09:42 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5084/image2qls.jpg

So 3 high sec ores are better than all lowsec and nullsec ores? Most null/low ores are at the bottom? Miners in nullsec or low sec take more risks and have to deal with things like poor refining rates (not to mention station tax). Risk goes up, reward should go up.

We going to get Spod looked at? Ie Spodzilla in the hidden belts? Hard to want to flip a belt when you have to mine that crap rock for a day.

Wait, let me see if I understand this correctly. In one paragraph you believe there is a problem with the value of hi-sec ores, then in the next you call Spodumain crap even though it refines into 85% hi-sec minerals and 15% of the most valuable lo-sec mineral excluding Morphite. Could it be that you really don't understand the problem economically, or is it that you just want CCP to change some numbers so you and others don't have to change the way you play?

No, you don't understand it correctly. I suggest looking at what spod refines into and how much it's worth before continuing.

No I understand perfectly. You want CCP to change refine yields so your income is boosted with out the need for you to change your behavior. You want to continue to mine as much ABC and Spodumain as you can without it having an adverse effect on your wallet. Please tell me what part of this I don't understand.

The way I see it you have two choices. Choice number one, stop mining the ores that are not valuable and start mining the ones that are. Choice number two, find those that are overproducing the same minerals as you and put a stop to it.

The first choice is easy. It only requires that you change your behavior. If you're lucky, many of your competitors will follow suit and mineral prices might return to more favorable conditions for nul-sec ores.

The second requires convincing your alliance leadership and members that it is worth fighting over your plight. That's probably going to be a hard sell, but it you can your rewards will be much greater.

To paraphrase the signature of someone else reading this thread, if you are not willing to fight to protect the value of what you have made safe, perhaps you deserve neither. I would suggest that also applies to ratters was well. Every ISK bounty paid to someone else, simply makes your bounties less valuable.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2012-08-12 23:11:41 UTC
Toshiroma McDiesel wrote:
I hope that is sarcasm. It's a bit like saying you won't mine diamonds in Sudi Arabia because that is where you get oil from.


It's not at all.

Let's say I look at the ore prices and decide I want to mine Veld/Scord. I'm a nullsec resident.

I have 2 options:

Mine the Veld/Scord in belts, since it doesn't show up in anywhere near good enough quantities in Grav sites (if at all, I don't remember offhand). Belt mining in 0.0 is akin to changing your name to "BLOW ME UP, I NEED THE INSURANCE MONEY". Even if I can mine a decent amount without dying (unlikely, but possible), I'm still faced with the issue of either selling it locally, where I might get higher prices but actual volume moving is an issue, or exporting it to a trade hub where the straight m3 size of even the refined product will be an issue.

OR

My mining alts drop corp, head to highsec, pick a system and mine the ores in far greater abundance with very minimal risk (esp. if we don't go the Exhumer-by-default route) and infinitely easier access to trade hubs.

HEY I WONDER WHICH OPTION IS MORE APPEALING

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Lost Drone Society
#124 - 2012-08-12 23:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Toshiroma McDiesel
Snow Axe wrote:
Toshiroma McDiesel wrote:
I hope that is sarcasm. It's a bit like saying you won't mine diamonds in Sudi Arabia because that is where you get oil from.


It's not at all.

Let's say I look at the ore prices and decide I want to mine Veld/Scord. I'm a nullsec resident.

I have 2 options:

Mine the Veld/Scord in belts, since it doesn't show up in anywhere near good enough quantities in Grav sites (if at all, I don't remember offhand). Belt mining in 0.0 is akin to changing your name to "BLOW ME UP, I NEED THE INSURANCE MONEY". Even if I can mine a decent amount without dying (unlikely, but possible), I'm still faced with the issue of either selling it locally, where I might get higher prices but actual volume moving is an issue, or exporting it to a trade hub where the straight m3 size of even the refined product will be an issue.

OR

My mining alts drop corp, head to highsec, pick a system and mine the ores in far greater abundance with very minimal risk (esp. if we don't go the Exhumer-by-default route) and infinitely easier access to trade hubs.

HEY I WONDER WHICH OPTION IS MORE APPEALING



So what your saying is we need to get more people mining in Hi-Sec (increase supply, drive down the prices) or less in Null Sec (decrease supply, drive the prices up).

And I'm sorry Null Sec is too risky for you to belt mine. You must be in one of those areas that doesn't have decent player run security,

Edit: Heck, you even have local.

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2012-08-12 23:28:03 UTC
Toshiroma McDiesel wrote:
So what your saying is we need to get more people mining in Hi-Sec (increase supply, drive down the prices) or less in Null Sec (decrease supply, drive the prices up).

And I'm sorry Null Sec is too risky for you to belt mine. You must be in one of those areas that doesn't have decent player run security,


Basically yes, and that's what's going to happen. I was just pointing out how stupid the "JUST MINE LOWENDS IN NULL DERP" argument is.

Nullsec isn't "too" risky to do anything, but the risk is there, regardless of how well intel channels work (it fluctuates greatly). I know it's kind of a meme that null is safer than high, but it's not even remotely true. To put it in the simplest terms I can, if you have A Thing You Do for isk, and it can be done for the same reward in either highsec or nullsec, you'd have to be literally ******** not to do it in highsec.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2012-08-12 23:34:49 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Andski wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Nul-sec miners have access to a great volume of hi-sec ores.


hint: you don't mine hisec ores in nullsec because you're literally better off mining that in hisec

hint: If hi-sec ores are more valuable that nul-sec ores, then stop mining Spodumain, mine Veldspar and Scordite, and stop importing your Tritanium and Pyerite.


Why the hell would you mean Veld/Scord in low or null when you can mine it in complete bordering-on-AFK safety in highsec? Mining lowends in null is a stupid, stupid idea regardless of the price of Trit/Pye.

Excuse me. It is simple market economics. Don't produce less desirable products when you can produce more desirable products as the same cost. What is so hard to understand?

Using OP's premise that Veldspar, Scordite, and Plagioclase are move valuable on a per volume basis than Bistol and Crokite, and since mining is all volume based, why would you go to the bottom of the list and mine Spodumain?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#127 - 2012-08-12 23:48:39 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Andski wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Nul-sec miners have access to a great volume of hi-sec ores.


hint: you don't mine hisec ores in nullsec because you're literally better off mining that in hisec

hint: If hi-sec ores are more valuable that nul-sec ores, then stop mining Spodumain, mine Veldspar and Scordite, and stop importing your Tritanium and Pyerite.


Why the hell would you mean Veld/Scord in low or null when you can mine it in complete bordering-on-AFK safety in highsec? Mining lowends in null is a stupid, stupid idea regardless of the price of Trit/Pye.

Excuse me. It is simple market economics. Don't produce less desirable products when you can produce more desirable products as the same cost. What is so hard to understand?

Using OP's premise that Veldspar, Scordite, and Plagioclase are move valuable on a per volume basis than Bistol and Crokite, and since mining is all volume based, why would you go to the bottom of the list and mine Spodumain?


Actually both the points are wrong.

Snow Axe does not want to do what needs to be done: flooding hi sec with lowends coming from somewhere else. Regardless of where they come from. Temp hi sec CFC mining fleets would really provide some cheeky laughter, somebody could even setup some "Bees Country" corp to suicide gank them to return them the Hulkageddon favor.

You on the other side don't factor in neither the logistics costs nor the simple fact (which imo CCP HAS to fix) that it's just impossible to setup a decent mass "hi sec style" production chain in nullsec. You want to compress those minerals but there's no efficient refining nor there are enough manufacturing slots to be able and mass produce 425mm or whatever is the best module to compress the wanted minerals.

Therefore null seccers are left holding the baby in this regard, and it's why they prefer digging low volume - high value per m3 materials.

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Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2012-08-12 23:49:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Andski wrote:
Daioh Azu wrote:
Nul-sec miners have access to a great volume of hi-sec ores.


hint: you don't mine hisec ores in nullsec because you're literally better off mining that in hisec

hint: If hi-sec ores are more valuable that nul-sec ores, then stop mining Spodumain, mine Veldspar and Scordite, and stop importing your Tritanium and Pyerite.


No, no, NO! Only hi seccers must learn, adapt and overcome!
Sov null seccers have worked so hard, they are ENTITLED to wealth, success, women and drinks!

Who did I hear talking like this already? Incursioneers before the nerf? Missioneers before their nerf?
See those live in hi sec, half CCP controlled and CCP nerfed the beejezus off their stuff.


0.0 is player driven, those who don't like low profits have to go enforce on the others their politics. And stop accepting infinite botting renters (not talking about CFC here) that after perma Hulkageddon started, they flocked to 0.0 to enjoy blueball safety.

I'd suggest that CCP also broke Nul-sec mining with the composition of industrial upgrades. However, unlike incursions it think it is harder to identify as broken because the effects were not as immediate.

Over all I think we are in agreement. ;-)
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2012-08-12 23:57:58 UTC
Xearal wrote:
it's simply a market effect.. it's not the ores themselves that are the problem, tweak them and you will just change prices around a bit.

Due to permageddon, a lot of high sec mining has gone boom, high sec mining is one of the prime suppliers of low end minerals in empire, as the low end ores mined in null are all used by capital production down there. The reason the price for all those low ends is going up is simply because supply cannot keep up with demand for them.

I'm a high sec manufacturer myself, and while I can easily get my hands on all the high ends I need, tritanium, pyerite and mexalon ( and isogen to a degree ), are much harder for me to get in sufficient quantities to have my operations run smoothly.
I'm quite sure I'm not the only manufacturer with this problem. The reason being that demand for high end minerals are much lower than the low end minerals when it comes to amounts, combine this with a massive surplus of these high ends going to market in empire by the bucketload from nullsec mining ops, and you get an oversupply of these, while low ends are still not catching up.

The last blog on mining was that it had gone up somewhat in highsec, a little more in low, and massively up in nullsec.
As miners in null sec generally go for the ABCs, as that's supposed to be the most valuable ore, they oversupply the markets with their high end minerals, killing their own prices. Meanwhile due to gankage, high sec mining is lacking behind in supplying the required low end minerals for manufacturers to crank up their production further, thus creating this 'imbalance'.
Also note, that afaik, the low end minerals also are available in null sec to mine. It's not like high sec is the only place to mine these. But due to their low value per m3, shipping these to empire isn't worth a lot.
I know some miners of low ends that see the prices in Jita which are higher than in our region, but they do the math, and having them exported by jumpfreighter costs them more than the difference in price, so it's not worth it for them to export them to Jita.
instead, they are sold/used locally by manufacturers, my guess is that this happens even more in nullsec where those mienrals would be very usefull in manufacturing capital ships and whatnot.

you can't simply wave a magic wand, invent some new ores/tweak current ones, and this 'problem' will go away. this would simply shift prices around a bit, until another equilibrium is reached. As mining in null is at the moment more prolific than in high, whatever this new equilibrium would be, would still favor high sec minerals, simply because they are mined less, and exporting the low end minerals is simply not profitable.


Yea pretty much this. You want cheaper minerals in hi sec, stop ganking miners.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#130 - 2012-08-12 23:58:50 UTC
If your going to mine in the belts:

- stay aligned
- watch local
(why does this seem familiar)
- use dscan
- don't mine afk
(ooh yeah, now I remember where I've heard this before)

And hey, you can even bubble gates to give yourself plenty of time to escape or react to anyone except wh raiders.
alittlebirdy
All Hail The Liopleurodon
#131 - 2012-08-13 00:02:13 UTC
Can ya get HS ores in low/null?

Yes?

OKay so the problem are the morons mining.

Keep in mind the minerals are free... lawl.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2012-08-13 00:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Snow Axe does not want to do what needs to be done: flooding hi sec with lowends coming from somewhere else. Regardless of where they come from. Temp hi sec CFC mining fleets would really provide some cheeky laughter, somebody could even setup some "Bees Country" corp to suicide gank them to return them the Hulkageddon favor.


Actually I know that's what has to be done, and I actually don't agree with the OP that any changes are necessary (though, given the OP is a Drone Regions resident, I sympathize with him for sure - they've been pretty thoroughly shafted by CCP from Day 1). I think that, at the very least, highsec needs to be given more of a chance to mine enough lowends to bring the price back down to Earth, and with these new barge changes, I'm betting it will be at least comparable. Highends will go back up once that happens, but until then, it's still all just growing pains from the massive drone alloy/meta-0 changes.


Jypsie wrote:
If your going to mine in the belts:

- stay aligned
- watch local
(why does this seem familiar)
- use dscan
- don't mine afk
(ooh yeah, now I remember where I've heard this before)

And hey, you can even bubble gates to give yourself plenty of time to escape or react to anyone except wh raiders.


Of course that's how this would work. There's just no point doing it in null, where the danger is a lot higher and the logistics post-success are that much more of a pain, when it can be done an order of magnitude easier in highsec for the same reward. That's all.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#133 - 2012-08-13 00:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Daioh Azu wrote:
No I understand perfectly. You want CCP to change refine yields so your income is boosted with out the need for you to change your behavior. You want to continue to mine as much ABC and Spodumain as you can without it having an adverse effect on your wallet. Please tell me what part of this I don't understand.

Nah, you are still missing it.

First of all, people don't mine spod in null unless they want to flip the belts. Go back to my first post. Miners who mine for income know how to sort by profit and choose the top one. ABC *was* the top, it's not now. That's the whole point of this and that's the thing you seem to be missing.

Where are ABCM ores? Why are they not on the top of the list? No no, stop right there about your market point. They are only available in nullsec, where the risk is greatest to mine, the hardest and most costly to refine and ship to highsec for the best price. So why are they falling? You can come up with all the excuses you want but the drone poo and T1 drop changes have completely flipped the market around. *Maybe* the new ship changes will affect it further, I personally do not think they will have a great effect. We will see.

Anyway, my whole issue is someone shouldn't be able to semi-afk mine in highsec (I did this for YEARS and never got ganked) with a new Mackinaw for veldspar, the lowest skill intensive ore, get perfect refine and have a direct line to afk haul their minerals to market to make more than we do in nullsec. *Maybe/Hopefully* this will actually increase supply of low ends and reduce the price further but I'm not convinced will have a large effect. Sure, it's all a sandbox but when you put ABCM ores ONLY in 0.0 regions, you would expect them to fetch you more isk than veldspar in highsec. If null sec isn't where the riches are in the game, then why does CCP create a system that clearly makes that point? See faction drops, faction BPs, moon minerals, and yes...ABCM ores.

Finally, the original ore system is set up by CCP - ABCM in nullsec, skills to refine those ores, use T2 crystals, and even make T2 crystals are FAR FAR FAR more intensive than veldspar and other ores. So yes, if everything else were equal you might have a point - they are not. The problem is, CCP created the system and for years the prices reflected that system. Do you think it was their intent that Veldspar and Lowends were the most profitable ore in the game? I think you would have a really hard time arguing that.

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Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2012-08-13 00:28:05 UTC
Cadfael Maelgwyn wrote:
I blame reprocessed loot from hisec missions for this.



Agreed. Level 3 and 4 missions should only drop ammo and meta 3 and 4 modules, at the current drop rate. That would take a ton of minerals out of the market, and make mining a much more lucrative profession.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#135 - 2012-08-13 00:45:26 UTC
Zifrian wrote:

Where are ABCM ores? Why are they not on the top of the list? No no, stop right there about your market point. They are only available in nullsec, where the risk is greatest to mine, the hardest and most costly to refine and ship to highsec for the best price. So why are they falling? You can come up with all the excuses you want but the drone poo and T1 drop changes have completely flipped the market around.


Sadly for you, the "market point" is really the only point. For all what it matters to the game mechanics, an unit of Megacyte is worth zero ISK exactly like a Trit unit. It's the buyers who assign an arbitrary value to these commodities and this arbitrary value comes from demand and supply, risk vs reward and greed vs fear.
Apparently the buyers don't believe the risk at mining something in a safe anomaly in safe blue space with safe local chat intel (from 3 in local to 4 => warp to safe) deserves to be paid as much as when you had to find the rare and contested neg truesec system with the rare goodies.

I still recall the second time I carried my industry alts to 0.0 in a renter indy corp we got downright told that anybody found *trying to come close* to *their* (landlords) negative truesec would be ruthlessly podded. And those who went there, went to the belts like men.
Does this still happen, with spawned anoms? This harsh resources contention? No. Are people still forced to mine at the belts like men? No.

Does price reflect this? YES.


Zifrian wrote:

Anyway, my whole issue is someone shouldn't be able to semi-afk mine in highsec (I did this for YEARS and never got ganked) with a new Mackinaw for veldspar


YEARS ago there was no perma Hulkageddon and most of all, no roaming Bat Country nicely organized gank bands.
Now there are, if you are forced in populated systems like i.e. ice miners have to do, then you have to play like you are mining in low sec, be aligned, spam D-SCAN till you get carpal tunnel syndrome and so on.

Or, fit so much tank that your yield suffers a lot. Before this patch, it was almost 35% less yield for a tanky-zero-MLU ship.

Did price reflect this? YES.

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Zhade Lezte
#136 - 2012-08-13 01:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The day it's too safe, is the day of 3 trit and 4 pyerite ISK / pu prices again.
Even then, this would just help 0.0 mineral prices to a point, not strongly reverse their decline.


So where was this argument when the technetium nerf rolled around? Clearly a mineral bottleneck of any sort can't exist based on what materials are required in items players use and lose so technetium being absurdly valuable even before OTEC just meant that free market forces were declaring technetium a proper risk/reward gain and we'd better go and role back the latest patch now that we've gained this wisdom.


Apples and oranges. On one side an unlimited supply everybody may harvest everywhere (including w-space and hi sec missions and hi sec anoms) vs a totally seizeable material concentrated in relatively small space.

What counts to make price rise is scarcity.

A number of factors caused scarcity in certain minerals.
1 factor (OTEC) caused artificial scarcity in Tech market. Tech is not so scarce, it just used to be seized. That's not a mechanic that CCP should "fix" per se, they have just to make it harder to seize.


Yeah I said disregarding OTEC specifically since that was artificial scarcity caused by a cartel and you'll never get a cartel in ore mining. Thanks for bringing it up as a strawman to beat down regardless, pretty classy of ya. Or maybe you honestly didn't think it was absurdly expensive even before OTEC/thought it was carteled ever since shortly after the patch made it the bottleneck in which case I don't know what to tell you.

Even without a cartel mineral supply shortages, regardless of where they come from, caused by results in low-end minerals, especially pyerite, being more expensive. When the ore ratios were first designed in the early stages of the game they were designed around T1 subcap production. Now people are discussing whether those ratios should be changed to better account for the huge low-end demand of capitals.

And supply remains an issue even with (nearly) infinite supply as highseccers have to choose whether to go to a new system for more scordite or mine ever so slightly cheaper veldspar, nullseccers have to mine bad high-ends to respawn belts or install new systems for more static belts as well as maintaining a industry index level. End result is that people will focus more on valuable ores including scordite but no one is going to just "resolve the supply issue" by mining scordite exclusively except for maybe highseccers in really deserted systems. And even they have to deal with the small inconvenience that is highsec freighting to move all those low-end minerals they harvested in the boonies. This is kinda tangential but I guess it's another reason why your claim that the free market will resolve everything is at a certain point invalid in a game like eve online.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Zhade Lezte wrote:

PS: Vaerah I'm curious if your opinions on "risk" in highsec vs. nullsec take into account the hundreds of billions in sov bills paid per month across eve or huge meat-grinder fest sov wars such as the one with 50b in losses I took part in in tribute last week. And you know, the simple fact that you can lose it all if you lose a sov war with another alliance, something that many toppled empires have experienced in the course of this game.



Don't try the "never been in 0.0 sec" card with me because I have been both in NPC, sov and w-space on this or my other characters and even on somewhat enemy blocks.

See, nobody, really NOBODY cares how much you spent, exactly like NOBODY cares if a lone miner gets his Hulk blown 10 times a month, the market price won't budge to make him a favor.

Other 0.0 alliances apparently have no issue settling down for ridicolosuly low ABC prices, if yours suffers from high maintenance costs I am sure nobody cares.
Do you want a commiseration token for you being there?



Cool, I guess since we're playing cards I should mention that I spent my first three years in eve online in highsec, wormholes, and NPC 0.0 before joining the alliance I'm now in. So yeah, we're pretty equal in "things we've seen" I guess! I honestly was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on having actually researched the real risk of owning space and paying sov bills, but that was probably a lost cause when you claimed high sec was riskier. I was also talking about both sides in that fleet loss, NCdot actually lost a good deal more in that specific fight and are probably going to lose their space and the ability to mine gravimetric belts. So you see, they are the real argument to why 0.0 ores should have more low-ends.

But please, keep talking about how you are an expert in how nullsec sov-holding alliances are doing and their risks involved in the still rather broken (but hopefully progressively improving) wreck that is the dominion sov systems while insinuating that the issues I raised are contained to my alliance, or even to my bloc. I'll just be sitting here watching as even non-affiliated entities say otherwise (sup Intrepid Crossing!) :allears:
Frying Doom
#137 - 2012-08-13 01:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
This very much comes down to how more people are mining in Null now and it is effecting YOUR income.

Welcome to mining in a player driven economy.

The market can be manipulated to the benefit of some, see your alliance for further details, its just your now on the opposite side of that equation and are whining

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#138 - 2012-08-13 02:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Zifrian wrote:

Where are ABCM ores? Why are they not on the top of the list? No no, stop right there about your market point. They are only available in nullsec, where the risk is greatest to mine, the hardest and most costly to refine and ship to highsec for the best price. So why are they falling? You can come up with all the excuses you want but the drone poo and T1 drop changes have completely flipped the market around.


Sadly for you, the "market point" is really the only point. For all what it matters to the game mechanics, an unit of Megacyte is worth zero ISK exactly like a Trit unit. It's the buyers who assign an arbitrary value to these commodities and this arbitrary value comes from demand and supply, risk vs reward and greed vs fear.
Apparently the buyers don't believe the risk at mining something in a safe anomaly in safe blue space with safe local chat intel (from 3 in local to 4 => warp to safe) deserves to be paid as much as when you had to find the rare and contested neg truesec system with the rare goodies.

I still recall the second time I carried my industry alts to 0.0 in a renter indy corp we got downright told that anybody found *trying to come close* to *their* (landlords) negative truesec would be ruthlessly podded. And those who went there, went to the belts like men.
Does this still happen, with spawned anoms? This harsh resources contention? No. Are people still forced to mine at the belts like men? No.

Does price reflect this? YES.


Zifrian wrote:

Anyway, my whole issue is someone shouldn't be able to semi-afk mine in highsec (I did this for YEARS and never got ganked) with a new Mackinaw for veldspar


YEARS ago there was no perma Hulkageddon and most of all, no roaming Bat Country nicely organized gank bands.
Now there are, if you are forced in populated systems like i.e. ice miners have to do, then you have to play like you are mining in low sec, be aligned, spam D-SCAN till you get carpal tunnel syndrome and so on.

Or, fit so much tank that your yield suffers a lot. Before this patch, it was almost 35% less yield for a tanky-zero-MLU ship.

Did price reflect this? YES.


I disagree on both points. The second one, highly doubt it's as big a factor as people think it is. I have yet to see hard data showing such and from my own experience, I mined during hulkageddons and never had a problem. But lets say it does. Do you really think it is causing trit prices to go from 2 to 7 a unit? Highly doubtful. Take ice mining for example. When goons attacked blue ice en mass, it took a hit. What did the others do? Not much. You think now that somehow they can affect the price of ore that is in every single system instead of a few? I doubt that. Again, show proof/data and I'd seriously look at it.

First point about the market. Yes, EVE's economy is awesome. The supply and demand are wonderful and the market system is great. However, for all the people that use these great explanations of the market they always leave one thing out. CCP controls the market. They have set up a system, built a world and set the rules and boundaries for the sandbox. If they didn't, then we would find ABCM ores in highsec. There is a reason we don't. And yes, while the market might be able to reflect supply and demand, the fact that CCP makes large changes to the game to manipulate prices shows again the effect they can have. Remember shuttles? Remember Drone Poo? Remember Incursions? CCP just changed all the mining barges. That is an event that alters the virtual reality we play in. So no, I don't agree that only market forces determine price. CCP set the system, it is crystal clear how they wanted it, and it's not working as designed right now.

Anyway, it seems most just want to argue 'Don't change anything!' as if somehow the system is working fine. CCP will change it when they feel it is necessary. I can guarantee you that if veld stays where it's at, it'll get changed. I happen to think it should be now and made my points. Others do not think it should be changed and made theirs. Time will tell.

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#139 - 2012-08-13 02:22:19 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
This has been discussed before.

The simple version: (a) nullsec is safer, and miners in nullsec are less rational than miners in hisec, and (b) Scordite is a bottleneck due to the demand for pyerite.


Not sure I agree. I find in my manufacturing that the bottleneck tends to be mexallon. Maybe it depends on what you're making. As for nullsec being safer - it is. But it's not magically safer. We MAKE it safer.

Seriously, more mexallon please.
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Lost Drone Society
#140 - 2012-08-13 02:47:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Snow Axe does not want to do what needs to be done: flooding hi sec with lowends coming from somewhere else. Regardless of where they come from. Temp hi sec CFC mining fleets would really provide some cheeky laughter, somebody could even setup some "Bees Country" corp to suicide gank them to return them the Hulkageddon favor.



Actually, that sounds like a lot of fun Pirate

Can we have Creeper Hulks for suicide missions against fleet mining ops ?

"Well Hi Guys, mind if I slide in here and tag a few of these roids? My arn't those stars pretty....hissing? what hissing? BOOM"

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.