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[Winter] EW Frigate Rebalance

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#141 - 2012-08-14 14:05:25 UTC
Painters are actually pretty good.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-08-14 14:34:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

I still really like the concept of a drone "sniper" and feel it would have good synergy with damps, but for now we'll have to shelve the idea.


Hey CCP Fozzie, your dream synergy can still be achieved. Just you need to use two ships. The new Maulus paired with an Imicus or Drone Navitas would be fun. Synergy achieved through team work. But, in a multiplayer game? How rude!
Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
#143 - 2012-08-14 14:49:00 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The Vigil changes are intentionally minor. We can keep tweaking as we go forward (especially as they hit the test server so people can try them out)

The Vigil won't be getting the 5% speed bonus back, sorry.


I'm happy with receptiveness to change so far, so I'm confident progress can be made. :)

And I'm not crushed about the speed loss, to be honest. It's sad, but as long as it is replaced with a reasonable alternative, then there's no net loss.

The problem, as you're seeing here, is that it just hasn't been replaced with a real alternative. Sorry. Maybe CCP sees something in TPs that the rest of us don't? You clearly hit the mark with the Crucifier (seriously!) and the Griffin; Maulus is about 75%, in my eyes; I just don't see why anybody would fly this current iteration of the Vigil.

Yep it needs a web range bonus. Make it a mini Huginn. Then it'll actually be useful.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#144 - 2012-08-14 15:02:50 UTC
Letrange wrote:
Del Vikus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The Vigil changes are intentionally minor. We can keep tweaking as we go forward (especially as they hit the test server so people can try them out)

The Vigil won't be getting the 5% speed bonus back, sorry.


I'm happy with receptiveness to change so far, so I'm confident progress can be made. :)

And I'm not crushed about the speed loss, to be honest. It's sad, but as long as it is replaced with a reasonable alternative, then there's no net loss.

The problem, as you're seeing here, is that it just hasn't been replaced with a real alternative. Sorry. Maybe CCP sees something in TPs that the rest of us don't? You clearly hit the mark with the Crucifier (seriously!) and the Griffin; Maulus is about 75%, in my eyes; I just don't see why anybody would fly this current iteration of the Vigil.

Yep it needs a web range bonus. Make it a mini Huginn. Then it'll actually be useful.


my thoughts exactly (see previous page).
would not turn into a mini huginn, because missing the missiles but it would turn into a "better bang for buck" hyena.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#145 - 2012-08-14 15:24:24 UTC
Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2012-08-14 15:36:20 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Letrange wrote:
Del Vikus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The Vigil changes are intentionally minor. We can keep tweaking as we go forward (especially as they hit the test server so people can try them out)

The Vigil won't be getting the 5% speed bonus back, sorry.


I'm happy with receptiveness to change so far, so I'm confident progress can be made. :)

And I'm not crushed about the speed loss, to be honest. It's sad, but as long as it is replaced with a reasonable alternative, then there's no net loss.

The problem, as you're seeing here, is that it just hasn't been replaced with a real alternative. Sorry. Maybe CCP sees something in TPs that the rest of us don't? You clearly hit the mark with the Crucifier (seriously!) and the Griffin; Maulus is about 75%, in my eyes; I just don't see why anybody would fly this current iteration of the Vigil.

Yep it needs a web range bonus. Make it a mini Huginn. Then it'll actually be useful.


my thoughts exactly (see previous page).
would not turn into a mini huginn, because missing the missiles but it would turn into a "better bang for buck" hyena.


Yeah, hyena's special was having web range bonus.. even with t2 resists, vigil would make it obsolete. That is why the velocity bonus on vigil was awesome.

Breacher needs that TP bonus nextt to10% explo missile dmg.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#147 - 2012-08-14 15:36:35 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.


Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#148 - 2012-08-14 15:47:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.


Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.


I hear there is this rebalancing effort. Hopefully it can buck this trend and make Gallente ships more versatile ;-)
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#149 - 2012-08-14 16:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Bloodpetal wrote:

The Maulus' more focused role will be better, imho. The drone role was a nice idea and I like when ships stand out from their counter parts in a class, but from a cohesive perspective it was definitely turning into more of a gimmick bonus than anything with any serious gravity to it.
Maulus has huge CPU. You will still be able to fit ample drone mods to create a "sniper drone" boat while still fitting two damps. Be very careful Mr. Griffin. Your time on field is very limited.

Something on the order of (+/- a few mods, eft'ing with old eft):

110 dps out to 90+km (??)
2x drone link augmentor

1x mwd
2x damps
1x drone navigation computer

2x drone damage amplifier
1x damage control unit

1x small ionic
2x overclocking

4x hobgoblin II

By definition, the Drone Sniper Navitas will be better than this. :)
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#150 - 2012-08-14 16:36:26 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.


Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.


So, what then is the usefulness of the race that specializes in Drones, and is supposed use them as a secondary weapon? 2 Medium drones are not more useful than 4 lights. While they may do more damage, it is almost never applied and they are easily alpha'd off the field in 1 volley.

I can only reiterate that drones are by far given out to too many ships in the game that don't need them. It gimps one of the strengths of the Gallente race, and makes them even less desirable.

A drone sniper while sounding cool, is completely useless using anything but sentry drones.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#151 - 2012-08-14 16:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
PinkKnife wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.


Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.


So, what then is the usefulness of the race that specializes in Drones, and is supposed use them as a secondary weapon?
....
A drone sniper while sounding cool, is completely useless using anything but sentry drones.

Gallente are supposed to be able to apply more dps - hence larger drone bandwidth. Most often this dps is best applied to bigger ships at closer range (that's why 75m3 bandwidth for Vexor... 2x Ogres can hit BCs easily enough once you web down your opponent). More dps at close range = somebody dead (you or your opponent) more quickly = less need for large bandwidth. That's the idea anyways. Also, ALWAYS 4x smalls are better than 2x mediums. 2x smalls do same damage as 1 medium, but are faster. Use all your space, but make sure you still have maximum number of drones on field.

Also, drone sniper will be very cool - especially if you start thinking about support drones for your fleet where tracking doesn't matter. Nuet the f! out of those drams! And longer range "sniper drone" boat without sentries will be cool in that they will actually be able to engage frigates (at all ranges)!
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2012-08-14 17:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Deena Amaj
Considering Vigil, how about that bonus hp to structure, to get more vital seconds of holding tackle before blowing up? Next to one of the painting nonuses.
Would give more means to having damage control. For what it is worth.

Doubt it is a solution though.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#153 - 2012-08-14 17:06:55 UTC
I don't get the hate TP's get..

People do realize that Sig is a part of the tracking equation right? It does not just help big stuff hit small stuff..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#154 - 2012-08-14 17:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Griffin: +5 dronebay and bandwidth
Maulus: Changed bonus to damp cap use, +2 pg
Vigil: +5 dronebay and bandwidth, +1 pg, +1.5 km lockrange, +10 velocity, -2 signature radius

The OP has been updated with these changes.


Comments:
- Griffin: I have to admit I'm surprised to see another boost to the Griffin. The ECM mechanic by itself makes the ship absurdly powerful... more details on this planned ECM change of yours would be swell.
- The Maulus: This seems like a net improvement. I would have preferred you to fix the core problem with drones overshooting small hitbox targets. Also note that the problem is not limited to pods/shuttles - it's also a tremendous problem with moving interceptors. Try fitting up an Ishtar with several drone nav comps and orbit it in an inty to see what I mean. I remain unconvinced that the bonus to damp strength is sufficient, but then I was a dedicated Arazu pilot before the nerf. :)
- The Vigil: Yeah so that doesn't really help that much. There's no reason for the Vigil to have 5 mids - so move that mid back to a low. Otherwise it's probably "fine". I mean, as fine as an ewar ship with two painter bonuses can be. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2012-08-14 17:29:50 UTC
It is not hate, at least on my side.
But, and a big but, Vigil had two different bonuses, not one of the same.

Having speed allowed me to catch and suicixe tackle stuff. Again, just me.

I just find the painting not as much of a special anymore, because ALL playera can put it on their ships. If TP had the fitting restrictions like Covert Cloaking/Cyno modules (and the -99% cpu for vigil, belli, phoon) i'd shut up like that.

Same to apply for other race-respective ewar.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#156 - 2012-08-14 17:31:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Devereux
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.


Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.


Looks like there was some error in your research. 1.5 doesn't fit into the Gallente scheme. It needs to be either 1.33, 2, or 3. I did the research for you:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Apbgh8v1tblLdEJzbE1BWFhRZnlXWlNCT3ZwWXhJN2c

It looks like you have some holes in your design template for Gallente ships!
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#157 - 2012-08-14 17:34:16 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I don't get the hate TP's get..

People do realize that Sig is a part of the tracking equation right? It does not just help big stuff hit small stuff..


Things like lock time issues (or tracking) are rather secondary benefits, all things considered. A ship fitted with RSBs can apply benefits directly to friendly ships throughout an entire fight. A ship with TPs must first lock a target and then apply a TP (which might miss), and then the remaining ships must lock and target that one. That's one step too many in the midst of a fight; it has no direct support or disruptive power. It is purely "supplementary", but not in a way that makes it substantially threatening.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-08-14 17:46:25 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I don't get the hate TP's get..

People do realize that Sig is a part of the tracking equation right? It does not just help big stuff hit small stuff..


Things like lock time issues (or tracking) are rather secondary benefits, all things considered. A ship fitted with RSBs can apply benefits directly to friendly ships throughout an entire fight. A ship with TPs must first lock a target and then apply a TP (which might miss), and then the remaining ships must lock and target that one. That's one step too many in the midst of a fight; it has no direct support or disruptive power. It is purely "supplementary", but not in a way that makes it substantially threatening.

Exactly. It is like asupport module, like remote sensor booster or tracking link - vaguely. Not a real disruption.
Only difference is that it works for you too.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-08-14 18:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Marcel Devereux wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.


Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.


I hear there is this rebalancing effort. Hopefully it can buck this trend and make Gallente ships more versatile ;-)


I very much agree with this. What good is bandwidth if a flight of drones is lost or destroyed and you have no replacements because your drone bay is too small? Makes absolutely no sense.

EDIT: At the very least give the Gallente a full 2 flights (and Amarr 3 flights if you insist). At least that way if the first flight is lost/destroyed, there's a backup flight in the bay, not half of one. Imagine having to fly back and redock and buy/fit more drones each time you lose a few? And it will happen, seeing as there's no drone HP bonuses on these ships. It's just a question of basic usability.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#160 - 2012-08-14 18:46:15 UTC
One target painter provides additional tracking/damage to the entire fleet whereas one Remote Sensor Booster applies benefit to a single ship.