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[Winter] EW Frigate Rebalance

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Lord Helghast
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2012-08-13 19:33:14 UTC
Since damps currently suck and probably wont be fixed soon, shouldn't the damp be a bit higher? Also would be nice if that MWD bonus also reduced mwd bloom and the drones per level
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#122 - 2012-08-13 22:51:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
probably not the right thread, anyway here is an idea :
New EWAR : target spammer
when hited by this module, the target get one more identical target for each target she have locked. Target need to fire again all of its targeted module. Though, now, the target will have two identical target for each of its target, and hence get one chance out of two of selecting the wrong one.

Each cycle of the module reshuffle the target panel of the victim, so it must choose its target each cycle and have one chance out of two of selecting the wrong one.

Using more than one module simply add one target for each lock, hence rising the "wrong target chance" each time, but like ECM, you always have a chance of selecting the right target.

You can use sensor strength to make the module chance based like ECM are.

That can replace ECM or make for the minmatar EWAR.

PS : another idea, for ECM or this module, is to make the use of more of one to add their sensor strength to the first one instead of cycling separately ; this way, you can stacking penalize them and make them more deterministic.
Hustomte
Veritex Industrial Inc.
#123 - 2012-08-14 00:38:50 UTC
With the Vigil AB nerf, what is going to be the next best ninja salvaging boat? Currently I have an expanded probe launcher on mine, i'd be bummed if I couldn't zip form wreck to wreck salvaging someone else's kill. P

...Signature...
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#124 - 2012-08-14 00:39:48 UTC
What, TP not good enough to count as EWar? :P

I think this is a fine place for the idea, but others may not agree. I think (and posted) that I view TP as quasi-logistical (external tracking enhancer mainly for missiles) and not in any way a direct "disruption" to an opponent. I suggested TD be for Minmatar (complimenting thier speed) and make Amarr cap-drain. However, a new type of EWar for Minmatar would also work.

ECM both won and lost matches in ATX, so dispite complaints, it is decently balanced. (Note: I think a lot of people don't like EWar in general.)
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#125 - 2012-08-14 02:02:51 UTC
Without knowing the changes to EW you are making it is really hard to know how these frigates are suppose to stack up and fulfill their intended roles. Right now it looks really unbalanced for both Gallente and Minmatar. Since you've said you are looking for feedback I thought I would suggest something different than what you have proposed. Again since you haven't spoiled the EW this may or not make sense.

Proposal:

Instead of having each race specilaze in a particular type of EW, you have two races that specialize (Amarr and Minmatar) and two races that are EW generalist (Caldari, Gallente).

Caldari would receive a bonus to all module based EW (ECM, Remote Sensor Damping, Tracking disruption, etc...).

Gallente would receive a bonus to EW drones (not as good as the module based bonuses). They would also receive a boost to remote sensor modules (Remote Sensor Boosters, Tracking Links, Projected ECCM, etc...)

Amarr would receive a bonus Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer and Tracking Disruptor

Minmatar would receive a bonus stasis webifiers and target painters.

Before you dismiss this and go all Greyscale on me here a few points.

Caldari

- Would get bonuses that would rate the as "good" in all EW areas excluding webifiers and energy drain modules.
- Would be consider the "kings" of EW as their canon suggests.
- When a Caldari EW ship comes on the field their would be a bit of a surprise factor into what EW it has fitted.
- I actually hate Caldari and I can not believe I made the suggestions above.
- Death to the Caldari Scum!

Gallente

- The drone theme fits with what you want to do with the Malaus
- Drones can be destroyed and take time to move to the target.
- The second bonus to the remote modules fits with the canon that Gallente are the sensor kings. It also fits with the EW counter.

Amarr and Minmatar

- These bonuses already are inline with what you are thinking. Maybe not for the T1 frigate.
- These are specialized ships and would still be appealing over the generalized ships because of their bonuses

General

- If you like this idea please don't tell Soundwave it is from me. He is apparently mad at me ;-)
- Despite this looking like a troll it is not. Please take it seriously and discuss amongst the other designers.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2012-08-14 02:09:13 UTC
The problem with damps is that even with the ship bonus the effect is not strong enough singly, and you have to at least double or triple up on the damps on a single target to have any effect. The same can be said with target painters. ECM on the other hand is frustrating in that a single module can shut down a target, with no need to double or treble the amount of modules to have a desired effect. This makes Caldari ECM superior, as they are able to spread out their limited ECM modules fitted to have a larger impact on opposing forces, whereas Gallente E-War ships must focus most/all of their ships E-war modules on a single target to have any meaningful effect on it. This does not make sensor damps a force multiplier like ECM does

10% per level for sensor damps, will give them a 75% effect. (math from earlier in the thread) I believe this is sufficiently crippling to a target, that this makes sensor damps able to spread out their modules as ECM is able to do now, and be a force multiplier. Anything less and the problem of multiple sensor damps on a single target reducing the effect of being a "force multiplier" crops up again, and anything more than that makes sensor damps overpowered.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#127 - 2012-08-14 04:28:04 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Caldari would receive a bonus to all module based EW (ECM, Remote Sensor Damping, Tracking disruption, etc...).
...
- Would be consider the "kings" of EW as their canon suggests.
That is how it used to be, at least for the Blackbird: "Special Ability: 5% Kinetic Missile Damage per skill level and 10% bonus to EW modules cap need per level." CCP wanted to expand EWar to each race.

In late 2005 a devblog announced that all of that was changing as part of the MK2 project. These overhauls are really nothing new, but very much needed.

Btw, an EWar drone bonus to the Gallente is something I've suggested for the Eos.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#128 - 2012-08-14 07:21:08 UTC
This needs to done together with other things:

- reduce RSD cap usage across the board, damping ships need to be able to MWD to keep range, and damp for sustained periods
- increase RSD base strength by a small amount
- if you insist on making all races drone races, please at least give Gallente drone ships bonus to all drone effects

.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#129 - 2012-08-14 08:28:28 UTC
swap one or all TP bonuses of the proposed vigil for one moderate web range bonus (so it reaches out to 15-20 km) and we have a winner.

web range + tp strength bonus would make a strong "disruption" frig people want to fly. maybe it needs to be more on the squishy side to give it a down side.
basicly would make the vigil a cheap hyena, but EAFs in general will get overshadowed by the new disruption frigs, so why not?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#130 - 2012-08-14 12:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Ok new update taking some of the feedback so far into account as well as some more testing.

We found that although the Maulus' 10% per level drone speed bonus was working quite well in most test cases, it was still causing drones to repeatedly overshoot against targets with very small hitboxes. This meant that the Maulus was having a hard time applying damage to shuttles and pods primarily. Combined with the desire many of you have voiced to see the ships focused more clearly on an ewar role and the fact that the ship is intended to be viable for newer players who will have weak cap skills, we're swapping the drone bonus for a 10% reduction in dampener cap use per level.

We're also making a series of small tweaks to the ships in this iteration, details of which are below:

Griffin: +5 dronebay and bandwidth
Maulus: Changed bonus to damp cap use, +2 pg
Vigil: +5 dronebay and bandwidth, +1 pg, +1.5 km lockrange, +10 velocity, -2 signature radius

The OP has been updated with these changes.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-08-14 13:00:05 UTC
Get them on SiSi NOW!!!!!



Yeah. They look pretty damn good now CCP Fozzie. Well done and fantastic working with the players with quick feedback and adjustments.

Just fix Damps and TP's now. ECM is fine Big smile
Waiting patiently for the anti ECM lynch mob
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#132 - 2012-08-14 13:12:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Vigil: +5 dronebay and bandwidth, +1 pg, +1.5 km lockrange, +10 velocity, -2 signature radius


Look, I'm glad you've been open to suggestions...but I fear that you're inventing your own here.

Among which of the feedback posts have folks been saying, "Removing that drone nerfed the Vigil"? Correspondingly, giving it BACK doesn't change the fact that it's still lost a lowslot and the only useful bonus it had. Yay for 1 more PG (it could use another), but the rest is just laughable.

Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-08-14 13:14:37 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Vigil: +5 dronebay and bandwidth, +1 pg, +1.5 km lockrange, +10 velocity, -2 signature radius


Look, I'm glad you've been open to suggestions...but I fear that you're inventing your own here.

Among which of the feedback posts have folks been saying, "Removing that drone nerfed the Vigil"? Correspondingly, giving it BACK doesn't change the fact that it's still lost a lowslot and the only useful bonus it had. Yay for 1 more PG (it could use another), but the rest is just laughable.



We don't know what the plans for TP's are yet. They're getting posted soon(tm) though. Might make all the difference
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#134 - 2012-08-14 13:16:30 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Vigil: +5 dronebay and bandwidth, +1 pg, +1.5 km lockrange, +10 velocity, -2 signature radius


Look, I'm glad you've been open to suggestions...but I fear that you're inventing your own here.

Among which of the feedback posts have folks been saying, "Removing that drone nerfed the Vigil"? Correspondingly, giving it BACK doesn't change the fact that it's still lost a lowslot and the only useful bonus it had. Yay for 1 more PG (it could use another), but the rest is just laughable.



The Vigil changes are intentionally minor. We can keep tweaking as we go forward (especially as they hit the test server so people can try them out)

The Vigil won't be getting the 5% speed bonus back, sorry.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#135 - 2012-08-14 13:21:40 UTC
What about removing the actually harmful speed bonus on the maulus' drones? 50% velocity means light drones will lose tons of damage to overshooting
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#136 - 2012-08-14 13:31:08 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
What about removing the actually harmful speed bonus on the maulus' drones? 50% velocity means light drones will lose tons of damage to overshooting


I had originally tested the +50% bonus and found that as long as you don't fit any navigation computers on top of the bonus the drones responded quite well against most targets. Going back and retesting with shuttles and pods found that the problem still existed for the really small hitboxes.

So as I posted above we're dropping the drone speed bonus and replacing it with a cap use bonus for damps.

I still really like the concept of a drone "sniper" and feel it would have good synergy with damps, but for now we'll have to shelve the idea.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#137 - 2012-08-14 13:32:34 UTC


Glad you took some thoughts to heart.


The Vigil will get some more tweaking I'm sure. I still think the main issue with it right now is just the slot layouts make it really a tough sell for the minmatar philosophy, but I guess we'll have to get on SISI to see it happen.

The Maulus' more focused role will be better, imho. The drone role was a nice idea and I like when ships stand out from their counter parts in a class, but from a cohesive perspective it was definitely turning into more of a gimmick bonus than anything with any serious gravity to it.

Great job! \o/Cool

Where I am.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#138 - 2012-08-14 13:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I still really like the concept of a drone "sniper" and feel it would have good synergy with damps, but for now we'll have to shelve the idea.


Bandwidth bonus for sentries?

Ie, something like a role bonus: -80% bandwidth need for sentry drones, -50% range to sentry drones, -50% damage to sentry drones
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#139 - 2012-08-14 13:45:59 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


I still really like the concept of a drone "sniper" and feel it would have good synergy with damps, but for now we'll have to shelve the idea.


Bandwidth bonus for sentries?

Ie, something like a role bonus: -80% bandwidth need for sentry drones, -50% range to sentry drones, -50% damage to sentry drones


Maulus is a frigate. Missing the point a bit :)

Where I am.
Del Vikus
Sundered Core
#140 - 2012-08-14 14:03:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The Vigil changes are intentionally minor. We can keep tweaking as we go forward (especially as they hit the test server so people can try them out)

The Vigil won't be getting the 5% speed bonus back, sorry.


I'm happy with receptiveness to change so far, so I'm confident progress can be made. :)

And I'm not crushed about the speed loss, to be honest. It's sad, but as long as it is replaced with a reasonable alternative, then there's no net loss.

The problem, as you're seeing here, is that it just hasn't been replaced with a real alternative. Sorry. Maybe CCP sees something in TPs that the rest of us don't? You clearly hit the mark with the Crucifier (seriously!) and the Griffin; Maulus is about 75%, in my eyes; I just don't see why anybody would fly this current iteration of the Vigil.