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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Winter] EW Frigate Rebalance

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Joshua Samson
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-08-09 19:36:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.

Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.


I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans. Twisted



Firstborn will be yours if ECM gets a rusty mace to its backdoor.
Intaki Kauyon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-08-09 20:36:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.


Agreed. Please keep the drones.

On a side note, When you guys are done T1 Frigs, are you touching any T2 frigs before you move into Crusiers?

I really would like to see the Keres and Hyena be what they should be. I'm not sure I could wait for a full round of T1 changes through Battleships for you to make these EFs useful for the costs. Would love to see the Keres be an upgraded Maulus to what you are proposing here.

In fact with these changes, an EF on field would be a inferior to a degree of its T1 counterpart. Great changes, just maybe give the EFs a quick duct tape fix to hold them over until a true revamp is ready. EFs are already farily gimp, these guys will make sure they never get any ladies.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#43 - 2012-08-09 20:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
CCP Fozzie wrote:

CRUCIFIER:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+1), 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 27 PWG (+2), 235 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(-24) / 400(+25) / 350(+21)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 180s (-7.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 350 (+68) / 3.35(-1.09) / 1064000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 45(+40)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km (+16.5) / 540 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 38 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 265 (+100)


This will be an excellent ship and I will make people cry with it.

Quote:

GRIFFIN:

Frigate skill bonuses (unchanged):
15% Bonus to ECM Jammer strength per level
10% Bonus to ECM Jammer cap use per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 2 L (+1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 24 PWG (-1), 240 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+9) / 250 / 250
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (-5)/ 135s (-52.5s)/ 1.815 (+0.482)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 325 (+38) / 3.5(+0.14) / 1056000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km (+5) / 500 (+100) / 6 (+1)
Sensor strength: 17 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 42 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 260 (+100)


There is no meaningful feedback possible until you reveal the changes you're planning for ECM.

Quote:

MAULUS:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Sensor Damp effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Drone MWD velocity and Drone control range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets
Fittings: 26 PWG (+1), 230 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(-13) / 350(-1) / 400(+71)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 275 (+25)/ 150s (-37.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 375 (+69) / 3.25(-0.626) / 1063000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+10) / 30(+20)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km (+14.5) / 520 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 275 (+100)


Damps on the Maulus will be almost useful, but either that drone bonus really needs to go or you need to fix the problem with fast drones being 100% useless.

Quote:

VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)


So the Vigil appears to be trading the speed bonus for a hard coded Min Frig 3. That's not too bad but the loss of a low is remarkably painful. Overall the ship's probably going from a marginally useful T1 interceptor to completely useless outside of dread/titan Blap Fleets.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#44 - 2012-08-09 20:48:52 UTC
Intaki Kauyon wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.


Agreed. Please keep the drones.

On a side note, When you guys are done T1 Frigs, are you touching any T2 frigs before you move into Crusiers?

I really would like to see the Keres and Hyena be what they should be. I'm not sure I could wait for a full round of T1 changes through Battleships for you to make these EFs useful for the costs. Would love to see the Keres be an upgraded Maulus to what you are proposing here.

In fact with these changes, an EF on field would be a inferior to a degree of its T1 counterpart. Great changes, just maybe give the EFs a quick duct tape fix to hold them over until a true revamp is ready. EFs are already farily gimp, these guys will make sure they never get any ladies.


This!

If you can manage to fix Ewar overall, it will help at least the Keres. Right now the damps are pretty useless. The Vigil as pointed out, has essentially no defense use of its primary bonused role (TP). Please give a little love to EAFs as possible so they aren't completely overshadowed by their T1 brethren. (And yes, I fly a Maulus and love the little guy.)
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-08-09 20:58:02 UTC
It’s actually the Maulus Drone control range bonus that I would question how that sort of control range bonus is useful as it is at the edge of lock range, you would be well out of turret range and so could fit range augmenter or a drone control rig instead if you wished. Also drones are very vulnerable used at that range, hitpoints or tracking (to help with the increased speed issue) may be better.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#46 - 2012-08-09 20:58:08 UTC
Unless the ECM change is coming at the same time as these rebalances, the Griffin is going to go from excellent to horrifyingly overpowered.

I like the crucifier changes, even though it will apparently force me to train actually train drone skills to use it to maximum effectiveness (jk, I'm putting salvagers in the highs and salvage drones in the drone bay).

Still not that impressed with the vigil, though I think the fault there lies with target painters and not the hull.
Intaki Kauyon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-08-09 21:03:50 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
It’s actually the Maulus Drone control range bonus that I would question how that sort of control range bonus is useful as it is at the edge of lock range, you would be well out of turret range and so could fit range augmenter or a drone control rig instead if you wished. Also drones are very vulnerable used at that range, hitpoints or tracking (to help with the increased speed issue) may be better.


Big Agree.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-08-09 21:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Problem with Maulus as I see it:

All other disruption frigates get 2 bonuses for disruption. Maulus gets one bonus to disruption and one to drones. Granted, those could be disruption as well, but drones are so easily destroyed that I would like to see a +10% HP bonus to drones as well. Without it, drones will very quickly get popped.

Having said that, I guess it depends on what you guys are planning to do with sensor dampening in the expansion. If you make it work decently in synergy with drones (that is, dampening makes targeting drones impossible until they get close, and slow when they're in targeting range), it might be OK. But without knowing what dampening changes will be, it's hard to even consider how well the ship measures up.

As a sidenote, how come Amarr always have larger drone bay sizes than Gallente? It may work fine for smaller hulls, but beyond a certain point (cruiser hulls and up, where ships reach 5 drone maximum for deployment) this gives Amarr an edge where Gallente are supposedly the drone kings? Never quite made sense to me. Gallente should have both the most bandwidth and the biggest drone bay, IMHO.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen...little chance of becoming too powerful.


Do you honestly believe there's any chance whatsoever of drone boats becoming too powerful any time soon? With drones the way they are? With the slow and unresponsive UI and AI (they still split damage even with focus fire on) being all over the place? How many years has it been since the last time you saw masses of people complaining about drone boats being too powerful? When was the last time you saw a drone boat in the top 20 on the killboards?

I really don't think drones becoming too powerful is something to be concerned about. Current drone mechanics alone and the state of the UI pretty much guarantee it's not going to happen. Not to mention drones still suffer from a number of other imbalances (destructible, impossible to overheat, etc.).
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#49 - 2012-08-09 21:45:57 UTC
drone mwd speed could be useful if the maulus would get allowed to use bigger drones then it usually could.
maybe combine the mwd speed in a volume und bandwidth reduction for electronic warfare and logistic drones?
making the maulus using logistic drones would also dreate a logistic frigate a lot of people are asking for.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#50 - 2012-08-09 21:47:48 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
drone mwd speed could be useful if the maulus would get allowed to use bigger drones then it usually could.
maybe combine the mwd speed in a volume und bandwidth reduction for electronic warfare and logistic drones?
making the maulus using logistic drones would also dreate a logistic frigate a lot of people are asking for.


I admit that this idea makes me very excited.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#51 - 2012-08-09 21:53:05 UTC
I believe 7.5% bonus to sensor damps is not enough as a bonus. I suggest a 10% increase to sensor damps would be more sensible. Sensor Damps are pretty gimped, and 7.5% makes it barely, barely usable. 10% will certainly make them worth using. 15% would make it awesome though.


I don't get why the other ships get an optimal range bonus, while the maulus gets a drone control range and speed bonus.


Tracking disruption is strong ewar, so i think 7.5% is good.


Target Painting is lacking the modules need a boost or a boost in bonus would be ideal.


I believe a boost from 7.5% to 15% would certainly make it worthwhile.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#52 - 2012-08-09 22:00:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
drone mwd speed could be useful if the maulus would get allowed to use bigger drones then it usually could.
maybe combine the mwd speed in a volume und bandwidth reduction for electronic warfare and logistic drones?
making the maulus using logistic drones would also dreate a logistic frigate a lot of people are asking for.


I admit that this idea makes me very excited.

-Liang


though i have to admit, huge potential for beeing op.
but it would make the maulus a very versatile disruption frigate.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2012-08-09 22:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
I believe 7.5% bonus to sensor damps is not enough as a bonus. I suggest a 10% increase to sensor damps would be more sensible. Sensor Damps are pretty gimped, and 7.5% makes it barely, barely usable. 10% will certainly make them worth using. 15% would make it awesome though.


I don't get why the other ships get an optimal range bonus, while the maulus gets a drone control range and speed bonus.


Tracking disruption is strong ewar, so i think 7.5% is good.


Target Painting is lacking the modules need a boost or a boost in bonus would be ideal.


I believe a boost from 7.5% to 15% would certainly make it worthwhile.


There was some ~maths~ done when the sensor damp nerf hit that showed 12.5% would bring bonused scripted damps up to the same level they were before they nerf. At least, for the half that it was scripted for.

-Liang

Ed: Allowing me to be ~bittervet~ for a moment in memory of my old Arazu: that basically means that the damp nerf was so strong it cut the module to a quarter it's old effectiveness, even on bonused ships. And when we prodded CCP about it for years the answer was: "I don't see anything wrong with damps. The nerf was not that strong. Despite the fact that the numbers don't lie and... oh who are we kidding LOLOLOL **** YOU GUYS AND YOUR DAMP CARACAL AT TEAM!!!!!!"

~bitter~

Ok, I'm done.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Denuo Secus
#54 - 2012-08-09 22:28:09 UTC
While I really like the idea behind the new Maulus (drones applied at range) I think this tactic suffers from serious issues with drone survivability at the moment. Drones are just getting destroyed when used at range. It works in medium sized fleets but solo or very small gang (Gallente style) drones are primary.

If my opponent cannot reach me - he simply has to attack my drones! At least that's my own experience so far.

IMHO drones are way to easy to destroy. Even on ships with drone HP bonus - ships intended to use drones as main weapon. I think it should be more difficult to get rid of drones. Assuming this, the new Maulus would be awesome for solo/very small gang PvP. Being an ewar frig it could engange targets a non-ewar frig could not. Destroyers for instance.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#55 - 2012-08-09 22:55:38 UTC
Maulus would be good if ecm drones (other than the jamming drones) were less killable (speed helps) and had more effective ecm bonuses.

All other ships look pretty rad. A griffin with 3 jammers, a prop mod and a shield extender sounds pretty menacing, and the vigil with 5 (!) midslots is going to be very fun.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#56 - 2012-08-10 00:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
can I be annoying and ask why this has to wait till winter? I mean, fine tuning some of the ideas/stats (they look pretty ok to me apart from drone control range on the maulus, seems a bit of a non-bonus) doesn't have to take that long?

p.s. that Griffin needs toning down.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-08-10 02:13:12 UTC
I like the amarr approach with drones you seem to be taking: limited bandwidth, but plenty of space for carrying multiple sets of drones for flexibility.

Looking forward to hearing more about the ewar changes coming, and hoping this includes a new approach to ecm.

These numbers look good - no complaints (I seriously love all this reworking of ship designs, it gives me a happy.) Lol

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#58 - 2012-08-10 02:17:44 UTC
I don't get why you're doing these changes so slowly

I think posting them on the forums, and if things don't go apeshit applying them in 2 weeks would be plenty of time..



At this rate the ship rebalance will take years...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Celedris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-08-10 02:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Celedris
The 7.5% bonus on damps is quite good. With signal suppression trained to 5, two damp rigs, and an unbonused info superiority link, you are looking at about 75% strength damps. That is quite powerful: two of them would result in -93% targeting range.

A 10% bonus would result in ~82% strength damps with an unbonused link. A 15% damp bonus would lead to 100% strength damps when using a proteus link.


TDs with 7.5% might even be too strong. You are already looking at potentially 89% strength for a balmers with just TD rigs and an unbonused info superiority link. Investor TDs and a Proteus link and it's closer to 95% strength. Two of those and even small blasters would have the tracking of a sieged beam revelation, or enough optimal reduction to drop large blasters under 0.2km.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2012-08-10 04:23:24 UTC
So is anyone working on general electronic warfare balancing for the base modules?

Having TD's do something to missiles.

Nerfing ECM or radically changing how it works.

Buffing Damps

Making Painters useful over all.